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1

Symnestra t1_iz5pe6b wrote

Hopefully there are consequences for lying. I've interviewed with so many places that had salaries posted only to be told, "Well the starting rate is actually-"

169

cote112 t1_iz5pi0y wrote

Will they make it so companies can't just put "40-200k" and consider that as being transparent with potential employees?

459

MyAccountWasBanned7 t1_iz5t8q5 wrote

Now do the other 49!

This should have always been the case. The stigma around discussing and being transparent about wages (created entirely by predatory executives) needs to die.

61

vrenak t1_iz5tycc wrote

Consequences should be company wide everyone goes to the high end of the promise, including CEO, no bonuses or other incentives can be given out.

56

alabasterwilliams t1_iz5wqoy wrote

In Minnesota, discussion of wages and earnings is not against labor laws, but your employer can stipulate no wage discussion while on the clock, which is where most employees get together.

It’s a fucked system, and if you ever shied away from the discussion of wages, you aren’t helping the situation.

12

Fishy1911 t1_iz64ckh wrote

Great question. It was a few years ago, there were news articles about companies having the Colorado exception, when we first did this, so it shouldn't be hard to Google. I wasn't looking and I'm not in tech.

3

destructivecupcake t1_iz6mnvg wrote

They should have to also post the median pay for the job, not the average or the range. Coming from a sales background, yeah one guy whose been there for 20 years is making $150k a year, but the rest of us who’ve been there 2 years are making $50k.

41

Mers1nary t1_iz6n9b2 wrote

New Washington? Why the hell do we need a new state...And where is it?

−9

skylercollins t1_iz6nlsb wrote

Oh cool, more intrusion on free speech and free association.

−42

TheRealVillain666 t1_iz6r9m1 wrote

Or when employers advertise : €650 per week.

How fucking long is that week!

Tell me the hourly rate.

14

joeyboii23 t1_iz6s949 wrote

I live in Colorado where this is already a law. Generally when looking for a job if I see a very high band I immediately know that it’s going to be on the lowest end of that and it’s probably not a smart idea to apply for that job. If I see a reasonable pay band I know it’s probably for real and I should apply.

1 - 10000000 would make me immediately skip to the next job post.

93

SereneDreams03 t1_iz6sbbg wrote

Possibly, but as a job seeker at least you know what the low end of their offer is. Personally, whenever I am looking for a job that is the number I care about, because that is what I am going to assume they will pay me.

80

8urnMeTwice t1_iz6x8fs wrote

I saw a Palantir ad that claimed $30k for a developer, why bother?

Many people have suggested CEO pay rose after transparency rules were enacted. If it's good enough for your boss, it's good enough for you

26

gerd50501 t1_iz6z6gh wrote

so how wide can the range be

Minimum wage - $100k.

0

Smallios t1_iz72xz1 wrote

Nice, we have that here in CO

2

hammonjj t1_iz76de8 wrote

It has to be a “good faith estimate”. I report any job listing I see without a range. Not sure how much good it does but there are supposed to be fines for it

18

Fenastus t1_iz76tit wrote

That's all well and good, but there needs to be specific language defining what a good faith estimate is. That's far too broad and open to interpretation to actually be effective. Enforcement would be a logistical nightmare as every company would end up trying to fight it, and companies that actually meant well might get flagged as well

4

MtFuzzmore t1_iz76ual wrote

If it’s a remote position and you’re in the US then you’re not their target candidate anyway. They’re shopping for somebody in South America who will do that job for that rate.

15

SpectralMagic t1_iz7ajkj wrote

Fucking useless I've seen this shit already, it does nothing assuming this bill does what I think I does.

"Acme Job Listing ($15,000-$76,000 Annually)"

−6

1x2x4x1 t1_iz7cjkg wrote

“Oh, we meant you’ll make it up in tips.”

1

casicua t1_iz7hplg wrote

The law passed here in NY state this year, and they require “good faith” representation of salary range. I’ve already seen some hilarious ranges on job listings like “$50-150k DOE” or “$70-175k depending on location and experience”

The good news is that if job listings are any indication, I’m being grossly overpaid for my position.

9

Human_2468 t1_iz7iiil wrote

It would be nice to not have to be interested in a posting and find out it is below my current salary. I'm not going to make a move that is lateral or a step down from where I am now.

3

foxxof9 t1_iz7k76k wrote

I live in colorado. There’s still jobs posted without salaries, there is very little you can do about it and in some cases companies will outright refuse to hire you.

3

1nv1s1blek1d t1_iz7nm3l wrote

Every state should have this. They just started doing this in New York and it saves me so much time applying for jobs.

9

Gullible-Medium123 t1_iz7o76h wrote

Do you consider other accurate labeling requirements to be free speech intrusions as well? (I'm not being snarky, I'm earnestly trying to better understand your perspective here.)

Like packaged food manufacturers being required to include ingredients and nutrition information; car manufacturers reporting miles per gallon according to a standardized test; property owners who wish to enforce access restrictions on their property having to post notice of such restriction ("no trespassing"); data collection companies having to let you know how they intend to use your data (privacy policy and terms of service); news services having at least a nominal duty to the truth; and so on?

6

joeyboii23 t1_iz7pnhk wrote

Yeah I’m not sure what’s defined as reasonable though, because I have definitely seen jobs in range of 50k - 150k. That’s a huge difference for the same job.

5

VentingID10t t1_iz81h2z wrote

Yes, so now all job salary ranges become ridiculously large so it ends up meaning nothing. They'll just post, "the salary range is 33,000 to 87,000 depending on skills, education and experience."

0

Bitter-Basket t1_iz82b80 wrote

The insanity in my state continues. The concept of "equality" and "fairness"has been perverted beyond comprehension.

−6

djdestrado t1_iz83lqg wrote

This will lead to far fewer jobs posted in Washington. More will be posted internally, locking out new entrants to the job market. Some companies will simply move elsewhere. Others will find or carve out loopholes.

−5

AustinTreeLover t1_iz8abps wrote

Been job searching lately and sometimes under "job range" employers will put something like "$0-$100000/hr".

0

skylercollins t1_iz8ayru wrote

>Do you consider other accurate labeling requirements to be free speech intrusions as well?

Yes, until it crosses the line and becomes fraud.

>Like packaged food manufacturers being required to include ingredients and nutrition information; car manufacturers reporting miles per gallon according to a standardized test;

Absolutely.

>property owners who wish to enforce access restrictions on their property having to post notice of such restriction ("no trespassing");

This should not be required but it is wise to do in order to avoid legal liability in the harm they bring to trespassers. "I didn't know I was trespassing because there was no indication I was on private property" should be a valid offense when suing somebody for harming you.

>news services having at least a nominal duty to the truth; and so on?

Absolutely.

Lying, defamation, hate speech, all of it are free speech and should be legally protected. Cancel culture can go where the law shouldn't.

2

SereneDreams03 t1_iz8b0g6 wrote

That only really works if you are in a position to negotiate, if they actually value your labor, most jobs are just looking to hire bodies to fill a certain role.

Maybe in your field negotiating a contract is common, but in my field there is not too much wiggle room on how much companies are willing to pay. If one company isn't willing to pay me what I'm worth, I just go to a different company, but that's why it's important that I know the salary range upfront, so I don't waste my time interviewing for a bunch of different jobs, just to find out how much they are willing to pay.

27

Tavarin t1_iz8bo44 wrote

This mis about applying to jobs, so people don't waste their time applying to jobs that pay less than they will accept. If no companies are posting salary info with their job postings, then people have to apply and go through interviews before they find out what it pays, thus wasting their time massively.

5

frogjg2003 t1_iz8crq1 wrote

Unfortunately, they only learn from each other when it comes to restricting rights. Actually making life better for the common man is every state for itself.

2

djphatjive t1_iz8d38m wrote

We have this in Colorado and it’s awesome.

2

Paradachshund t1_iz8fxo3 wrote

So if I'm following your philosophy, and let me know if I'm not understanding you, companies should be held liable if they fail to disclose a salary range of their own volition, and it should be something you could sue them over. Is that right?

2

Clarkeprops t1_iz8j7kw wrote

There’s no labour shortage. There’s a wage shortage. Funny how these free market fucks seem to forget how supply and demand works.

7

pamplemoussemethode t1_iz8oyqj wrote

I work in this field and deal with questions about this law from companies constantly, the "good faith" language is just as frustrating to the people who are asked to post ranges as it is to job seekers. The thing is that what you posted isn't a hilarious range at all...it's actually totally reasonable. It's just that it's covering a mix of multiple levels, and multiple locations.

Imagine a company is willing to hire anything from an L2 to an L4 for a role, in any geo from Fargo, ND to San Francisco, CA. But because they could theoretically hire in NYC, and already have one employee there, they have to post a range for the role. In theory, they could just post the NYC range for the role. But they'd still need to post the spread from L2 to L4, so the range already becomes broad. And then there's the fact that that's not what they'd pay in Fargo, so the range gets stretched even further in order to not mislead candidates in other markets. The result is a really wide spread, usually much wider than what you shared.

No one is doing a good job navigating this. In some cases I've seen businesses create multiple job postings just for specific markets, and give the exact pay range by level so that candidates get 100% accurate information. Then they get flooded with applicants that aren't in that market, and have to deal with wading through the noise, while also managing a bunch of duplicate job postings.

The pay transparency laws are a big positive for job seekers, but right now everyone is still trying to figure out the best way to follow them.

2

pamplemoussemethode t1_iz8pp32 wrote

NYC is taking it pretty seriously, reporting a violation is easy and each violation carries a $250,000 fine. There's a 30 day grace period to correct your first violation, but after that there's no getting out of it. California fines go up to $10K per posting. Overall, states are getting more strict.

5

Alexstarfire t1_iz8rquu wrote

Unless for some reason they tell you a higher number I would just get up and walk out. If they can't even get the salary range right why would I trust anything else they say?

5

Hiskus t1_iz8s4fu wrote

Living in France, I'm always surprised to learn that in the US you can post a job offer and not say what the salary is !

0

SurlyJackRabbit t1_iz950h2 wrote

Be careful what you wish for.

What happens when this is inacted is that each individual employee loses a ton of bargaining power. Wages flatten across the board and actually go down. Remember, your employer can see what everyone is paying so they don't have to compete as hard to get a good employee. And asking for that raise means you aren't asking for just you to get a raise... you are asking for every single person at your salary level to get a raise. Think that's going to happen? No more exceptions for top performers. Salary bands all the way. Good for equity, though, if that's your goal.

It's not as good as it sounds. Take it from a Coloradan.

plus and minus of pay transparency

2

fusionsofwonder t1_iz98say wrote

I'm in WA, and my company has two open positions in my job rating and I cannot wait to see how they update them.

2

covertpetersen t1_iz9e3dm wrote

>Who is seriously going to accept a job without knowing what the pay is ?

So instead of knowing what the salary range is before a job interview, or even an application, you'd rather waste your time on those things and then find out the salary is too low?

Use your head

1

JLock17 t1_iz9iy69 wrote

Needs to be the President one, not the rainy one. But good progress, none the less.

1

skylercollins t1_iz9ji8a wrote

It's just the principled free speech stance taken to its logical conclusion. Wherever you disagree, apply that disagreement consistently across the board and you'll probably reach some very distasteful conclusions, at least I hope you would, assuming you're a kind and decent person.

0

Mushu_Green t1_iz9ppjf wrote

i wish it was like this everywhere...

1

Dhiox t1_iz9vd07 wrote

I recommended a guy for a job I have, told him what I made and the dude managed to negotiate a dollar extra in pay to what i make, despite less experience and schooling. Now I know the absolute minimum i should be demanding for my next raise.

2

Fozzymandius t1_iz9zaqt wrote

Your employer already uses industry wide hiring tools that have salary ranges and caps for positions by job title. Yes this can flatten wages, but it also gives people a better idea of what is out there and potentially more room to bargain.

I used a job posting with pay info (it was not required by law at the time) as evidence of need for a pay raise and was given a ~18% raise.

2

TheConboy22 t1_iza2zst wrote

Confidently. Companies typically ask how much you think the job pays. I always high ball here. When they tell me a price I say that I like the job but for me to make the change that I’ll need to make around x (higher than they offered) they typically try to low mid me and we haggle to a middle rate. That’s my experience on it. You have to have reason to be paid more though. If the job is easily replaced by the next Joe than good luck.

2

2goornot2go t1_iza447g wrote

I wonder if there will be any mechanisms to keep employers actually paying according to the salary ranges they publish. I used to work at a (big tech) company and found out at one point that I had been being paid less than what the range specified for a while and I wasn't aware of this (ranges weren't shared with us individual contributors lol) until I started working with a manager who went to bat for me to get me back in the range. Should be illegal to pay an employee less than what the employer specifies for that role/location and hopefully this is a big stride towards that.

1

SurlyJackRabbit t1_iza5b2q wrote

Not saying that can't happen... you got lucky. Your employer is now open to a lawsuit unless they give everyone else with your same job title the same raise. Of course the employer is using tools already... but this kind of law makes the data feeding into those tools even better.

Overall, wages go down 2% when these kinds of laws are passed so your experience is the exception not the rule.

0

Bgrngod t1_iza5ld9 wrote

I work in the ATS space and these laws rolling out, all with subtle differences, are really a lot to try and work with. There are some other state variations on wage notification for Nevada, Connecticut, and soon Rhode Island, where they opted to require this information is shared during the hiring process before the first interview or before the initial offer.

I totally support the idea behind it, and 100% understand why going down this path is a great idea. It's transparency that drives supply/demand theory. Buuuut... it's a patchwork mess right now.

For clients I work with that want to do it and support it, it's still a huge PITA to figure out exactly what the best way to handle it is. Their wage ranges are all over the place depending on regions, so the big discussion revolves around how to bucket particular regions. A lot of these setups started as one position with the exact same details flagged for the entire country. Now they have to split that up and maintain separate positions for each different regional pay range that needs to be posted.

Mix that in with how a lot of aggressive 3rd party job boards are scraping career pages without permission, and then creating their own postings as if the company with the job opening did it, and things get messy REAL fast.

1

Fozzymandius t1_iza5r5o wrote

I got lucky that I negotiated a raise? No, I demanded it and the threat of me leaving for more money made them give me a raise. It was a real threat that I could easily follow-up on even today.

And there is no one else with my job title in this market for my company. I cover the entire PNW. Even if there was someone else they can't be sued for negotiating a raise with me.

2

SurlyJackRabbit t1_iza708m wrote

Yes, you got lucky... which isnt to say that what you did doesn't occur. It's definitely more the exception than the rule. If they call your bluff then you got to call their bluff and actually take that other job, which is generally a pain in the ass... Pay transparency is good for the company, good for equity, but bad for top performers since everyone has to be treated the same and your job has a much stronger negotiating position (genereally) since they can no longer approve raises for just one person.

0

TheConboy22 t1_izaaa35 wrote

In my scenario. The person who is interviewing you decides. They make the determination if they want to hire you. They have a range of pay they can pay and want to pay you the lowest within that range.

1

Fozzymandius t1_izaepbs wrote

I won't say it was lucky because it was an ultimatum, which I was happy to enforce either way. It would be lucky if I was banking on the raise.

Pay transparency for wage brackets doesn't mean they can't approve individual raises. The wage bracket for my job is realistically $50-175k. It may be more of a problem if you're looking for a job with a small bracket of acceptable pay, but a company should be able to justify wages for top earners. You can easily tell people that they would need to demonstrate more skills and experience to earn higher amounts. Maybe you'd argue this opens them up to suits but I say a competent HR department would be able to demonstrate that pay is apportioned by actual metrics.

If it isn't then that smacks of discrimination against lower earning employees or nepotism/favoritsm.

1

skylercollins t1_izbar5k wrote

The line is aggression or the threat of aggression (the initiation of force against a person or property).

Telling a business they have to disclose a salary in their job listing is telling him that you're going to throw them in prison if they don't. All laws are backed up with force. Always. That's an initiation of force against non-force. I don't know about you, but that violates my most fundamental of principles.

1