Viewing a single comment thread. View all comments

Kirbyoto t1_irxfr7i wrote

Reply to comment by [deleted] in What's your opinion on renaming Plantation Street because it's racist? by [deleted]

>I'm offended by the idea that the medical school has nothing better to do than to pontificate about street names

And what about you? Do you have anything better to do?

>which would cause even more confusion than there normally is when trying to give directions around the unwieldy traffic grid

Everyone has GPS now, I don't imagine anyone would really give a shit if not for the race angle.

>fail to recall that there were and currently are plantations without slavery

Sure dude. All those famous slavery-free plantations.

>These people are just inventing problems.

"Oh no they're renaming a street" is inventing a problem too. Again, if this wasn't done for race-related reasons, you absolutely wouldn't care. If they were renaming a street to honor a local hero or just because it sounded better, nobody on the planet would give a shit.

−1

-Horatio_Alger_Jr- t1_irxgq83 wrote

Did Quinsigamond Plantation have slaves?

9

outb0undflight t1_irxqkza wrote

As /u/Kirbyoto points out, American colonists in colonial New England had very few compunctions about selling Native Americans into slavery, so whether or not Quinsigamond Plantation itself had slaves is kind of ignoring the point that it's largely impossible to extricate the word 'Plantation' in America from the practice of slavery. Even if a specific plantation owner didn't own slaves and used entirely paid labor (which is a massive if) they were all part of a system that relied on slavery for sustainability. Why do you think profit margins on goods from the American colonies were so high?

People like OP can point to the fact that Plantations still exist without slavery all they want, but Plantation St. was named after a Plantation that actively took place in the American plantation economy, and that is impossible to divorce from slavery.

4

[deleted] OP t1_irxxvh4 wrote

Your argument is weird. The name Plantation Street is bad because it is connected to the people who founded this country, since it was created by people who founded the country, and even though it's not referring to a slave plantation, it was named by people who could have had slaves, so it's therefore a slavery-reminiscent name?

Also, we did "extricate the word 'Plantation' in America from the practice of slavery." Every single day, thousands of people in this city alone use the word "plantation" without thinking of anything aside from a street that runs from Rice Square past Lincoln Plaza to Northeast Cutoff.

4

outb0undflight t1_iry0nk8 wrote

No? That's literally not my argument. It has nothing to do with who named the street, it's that in the United States the word "plantation" is inextricably linked to the Atlantic Slave Trade. This is not a question. The majority of Africans taken from Africa ended up on Sugar Cane plantations in the Carribean. The majority of Slaves in America ended up on cash crop plantations in the South. The slave trade picked up and expanded specifically because these plantations needed labor. They only started to use paid labor when they ran out of slaves to use. Even if you want to argue that some people within the plantation economy system didn't use slaves, the vast, vast majority of them did. Are you starting to see a link between the word plantation and slavery?

4

[deleted] OP t1_iry36yg wrote

Before the 1800s, when the name was first applied, a plantation was just some kind of farm-type area. "Plantation" was used before anyone even permanently settled here, so there is absolutely no relation to slavery. That name came into being before the whole Southern plantation system started. We're not talking about Robert E. Lee Road. We're talking about a street whose name can be interpreted as something tangential to slavery if you stop and think about it and if you want to and if you aren't completely honest. It's not a racist street name. It's not a name that anyone has taken issue with. It's some some bureaucrats looking to justify their role at the medical school. Worcester has a Black community that has never raised this as an issue, ever. It took paid (highly paid) diversity consultants to come and tell us our street name is a problem.

You know what was also linked to slavery? Cotton. Shall we get rid of that term as well? Should the school send its consultant to Leominster to demand that they change the name of Cotton Street? Should they go to Sturbridge and demand that the name of the Cotton Mills Dam be changed? I mean, that's more directly related to slavery, since the cotton mill it's named after opened in the antebellum period and, you know, was a cotton mill.

0

Ikirio t1_iry4bh3 wrote

And to add..... UMASSMED doesnt pay its post-docs or graduate students well. We all just got a raise because after a review the school realized we were paid so shit that it was actually illegal by MASS equal pay laws and they wanted to get ahead of it before we caught on.

They are paying a consultant/DIG officer at least 100K plus staff for their office and building etc so that they can virtue signal about shit that has no impact on a fucking single person while engaging in some of the worst anti-labor shit. Its a bunch of horse shit.

4

[deleted] OP t1_irybt6k wrote

Sort of like, "Hey, look at this shiny quarter over here..."

1

-Horatio_Alger_Jr- t1_irxuqqz wrote

>Even if a specific plantation owner didn't own slaves and used entirely paid labor (which is a massive if) they were all part of a system that relied on slavery for sustainability.

Do you understand what you are saying right now?

−1

outb0undflight t1_irxwtpm wrote

Yes that people who did not own slaves could still take part in a system that relies on slavery. This isn't some fucking galaxy brain take. The point is that you can't "Not All Plantation Owners!" away the fact that in America the word is inextricably linked with the Atlantic Slave Trade.

This is all entirely seperate from the fact that Quinsigamond Village and Quinsigamond Plantation are basically the same thing. QP was more like a homestead than a plantation in the traditional sense. So people getting bent out of shape about the fucking plantation part are ONLY getting pissy because of the race/slavery aspect.

4

-Horatio_Alger_Jr- t1_irxz8sm wrote

>Yes that people who did not own slaves could still take part in a system that relies on slavery. This isn't some fucking galaxy brain take.

You do realize there are more slaves today than in the history of the US. You buying goods that are globally sourced today is contributing more to slave labor than the colonists ever have.

You are using more slave labor because of your nikes, iPhone, and solar panels than were ever used on plantations.

1

Kirbyoto t1_irxh9j9 wrote

I don't know if it had African slaves but apparently at the time when the area was called "Quinsigamond plantation", settlers were in the habit of enslaving natives...so, basically, yes.

"Between the war’s outbreak in June 1675 and its end in August 1676, up to forty percent of New England’s indigenous population had been killed, died in captivity, or sold into slavery."

By the way - did anyone in this thread defending the name "Plantation St" know literally anything about Quinsigamond Plantation before today?

2

-Horatio_Alger_Jr- t1_irxsnng wrote

I guess we need to rename the city also. Worcester has ties to wars with natives.

I did not see much information about slavery on Quinsigamond Plantation in your link. Much more like a passing comment.

>By the way - did anyone in this thread defending the name "Plantation St" know literally anything about Quinsigamond Plantation before today?

I like to learn about the history of my surroundings, so yes, I did.

>I don't know if it had African slaves

Who said anything about where the slaves originated from? I asked about slaves. Does it matter where the slaves came from? Are certain slaves more oppressed in history than others?

Why is UMass not addressing today's slaves. The slaves that make the stainless steel for their medical instruments, the solar panels for their green initiative. Does UMass only get their fuel for their generators and life flight from areas that do not oppress women?

Pushing to change the name of a street because of the word plantation is about as shallow as you can get.

4

chadwickipedia t1_irxzwdu wrote

Why stop at the city name, rename Massachusetts

3

Kirbyoto t1_iryfdzo wrote

>I did not see much information about slavery on Quinsigamond Plantation in your link. Much more like a passing comment.

Yes it's almost like Quinsigamond Plantation isn't tremendously important to history and the people furiously defending its namesake are just looking for things to be upset about. Again, did you know a single thing about it before today?

>I like to learn about the history of my surroundings, so yes, I did.

Name one thing about it without Googling right now.

>Who said anything about where the slaves originated from? I asked about slaves.

And I answered about slaves. I told you about slavery, and genocide to boot. So it sounds like you're just looking for a distraction.

>Why is UMass not addressing today's slaves.

Are you? Do you make sure all the products you use are made without slave labor? Or are you "virtue signalling" right now?

>Pushing to change the name of a street because of the word plantation is about as shallow as you can get.

Pushing against it for effectively no reason is shallower.

−2

[deleted] OP t1_irz1zpp wrote

>Pushing against it for effectively no reason is shallower.

No, that's nonsense. If things are fine as they are in any given situation, e.g. the Grafton Hill's array of street names, telling someone not to intervene to make a change is sensible. Others have already mentioned the burden it puts on the thousands of people who live on this street to change all their documents, and the tens of thousands of dollars on new street signage, as well as the fact that people don't like their street names being changed as evidenced by people's responses to Kilby Street's name being changed, and you have a pretty good set of reasons.

The fact that some people here, yours truly not included, don't know the history is further proof of the argument that no one views "plantation" in some historical sense. It's viewed as the word for this street, right now, not the slavery that didn't even exist in the area when Quinsigamond Plantation was named.

1

Kirbyoto t1_is1xp5f wrote

>If things are fine as they are in any given situation, e.g. the Grafton Hill's array of street names, telling someone not to intervene to make a change is sensible.

So literally your only argument is that all change is inherently bad and has to be hyper-justified. There's a lot more examples of that in the city for you to freak out about than just the name of one street. Frankly I'm just disregarding this argument entirely, in the wake of all the changes Worcester has gone through I think pretending anyone cares about one street name is truly disingenuous.

>The fact that some people here, yours truly not included, don't know the history is further proof of the argument that no one views "plantation" in some historical sense.

You can know the connotations of the word "plantation" without knowing the specific history of Quinsigamond plantation. This is like arguing that if you know what a castle is, then you must know the history of Windsor castle.

>not the slavery that didn't even exist in the area when Quinsigamond Plantation was named.

As established earlier, there was slavery in the area - the enslavement of Native Americans. Like I said, nobody who's mad about this change knows anything about the history of Quinsigamond Plantation, including you.

1

-Horatio_Alger_Jr- t1_is03lm8 wrote

>Yes it's almost like Quinsigamond Plantation isn't tremendously important to history and the people furiously defending its namesake are just looking for things to be upset about. Again, did you know a single thing about it before today?

It is very important to the history of the area and country.

>Name one thing about it without Googling right now.

The Johnson massacre.

>And I answered about slaves. I told you about slavery, and genocide to boot. So it sounds like you're just looking for a distraction.

A distraction?

>Are you? Do you make sure all the products you use are made without slave labor? Or are you "virtue signalling" right now?

I do. I use sites like still made in the US and others before I purchase most things. It really does not matter to the conversation though, as I am not trying to change the name of anything.

>Pushing against it for effectively no reason is shallower.

No reason? Why do you say that?

1

Kirbyoto t1_is1x4fa wrote

>It is very important to the history of the area and country.

Literally everything that happens is technically important to history. But "it's important to history" and "people in the area know and/or care about it" are two different statements.

>The Johnson massacre.

Ah, so the one thing you knew is "well the natives killed some people too". Convenient.

>A distraction?

Yes, a way for you to avoid the actual point, which is that the Quinsigamond Plantation does have a history with slavery and genocide. Your little "oh who said anything about AFRICAN slavery" schtick was just stalling for time.

>I use sites like still made in the US and others before I purchase most things.

And where do those companies get their materials from? Do you think you can circumvent international capitalism with smart choices from a website?

>It really does not matter to the conversation though, as I am not trying to change the name of anything.

You are trying to preserve the name of something that you have no genuine reason to care about. Also, it does matter to the conversation, since your main reason that UMASS shouldn't advocate for the name being changed is that you personally believe they aren't morally pure enough to "deserve" it.

>No reason? Why do you say that?

I mean you don't really care. Nobody in this thread does. Pretending that a street name being changed is somehow offensive or disgusting to you is obviously fake shit. What you actually care about is the idea of things becoming "more PC", hence why a street name has become the flashpoint for all of Worcester's dingy little conservatives to crawl out of the darkness and pretend they have something important to say.

1

[deleted] OP t1_irxj1hy wrote

>And what about you? Do you have anything better to do?

Currently, I'm waiting for feedback on a document I need to process. Not much else to do.

>Everyone has GPS now, I don't imagine anyone would really give a shit if not for the race angle.

Just to be clear, street names don't matter, and Worcester streets aren't notoriously complex, and people no longer ask for directions anymore? And the only possible reason that anyone could worry about changing the name of one of the most important streets in the city could be the "race issue"?

>Sure dude. All those famous slavery-free plantations.

Well, the first picture Wikipedia shows for "plantation" is of a current tree plantation in Galilee which is - you guessed it - devoid of slavery.

>"Oh no they're renaming a street" is inventing a problem too. Again, if this wasn't done for race-related reasons, you absolutely wouldn't care. If they were renaming a street to honor a local hero or just because it sounded better, nobody on the planet would give a shit.

When they rename a street to honor a hero, they generally do that for a block or so and use both names.

People are still angry that Kilby Street's name was changed to whatever it was changed to, that Crystal Park became University Park, and so on. Just talk to any New Yorker over a certain age about 6th Ave vs. Avenue of the Americas and you'll encounter a strong opinion.

If they came and said, "We want to renamed Grafton Street because it just doesn't roll off the tongue well," do you think people wouldn't care?!

So what, what's the reason for changing the name? Who exactly has a problem with just leaving it as it is?!

5

Kirbyoto t1_irxk9ud wrote

>Currently, I'm waiting for feedback on a document I need to process. Not much else to do.

OK so when you have free time it's normal but when "the medical school" has people with free time it's obviously a sign that something's wrong. Sure dude.

>Just to be clear, street names don't matter

Yes. Like I literally don't care if they change it or not. It is meaningless. But watching people like you freak out about it is frankly pathetic. You guys are so desperate for victimhood while decrying it in others.

>Well, the first picture Wikipedia shows for "plantation"

You mean the same Wikipedia page that says plantations are extensively linked with slavery in the American colonies, and even today plantations are associated with para-slavery? Wow, great investigative work. Really cracked the case with that one.

>People are still angry that Kilby Street's name was changed to whatever it was changed to, that Crystal Park became University Park, and so on. Just talk to any New Yorker over a certain age about 6th Ave vs. Avenue of the Americas and you'll encounter a strong opinion.

When you say "people" you mean a handful of people like you with too much time on their hands and too much self-importance bemoaning how much everything is changing and it's all so difficult. So yes, all those people are pathetic too. I suggest you get a hobby or something since you apparently have so much free time on your hands that you need to vice-signal about street names to show how much you don't care about racism or whatever. I, for one, do actually have better things to do than listen to you rant.

2

[deleted] OP t1_irxpugs wrote

>OK so when you have free time it's normal but when "the medical school" has people with free time it's obviously a sign that something's wrong. Sure dude.

You understand that the people at the medical school are doing this as part of their actual job, right? The request is made by the medical school.

>Yes. Like I literally don't care if they change it or not. It is meaningless. But watching people like you freak out about it is frankly pathetic. You guys are so desperate for victimhood while decrying it in others.

Again, people don't like when names are changed for no reason. I gave you other examples, but you jump to "victimhood." I know it's trendy in your circles to think that everyone who doesn't agree with you is a far-right extremist, and that it's somehow a "win" to use "victimhood" against such a group, but this type of argumentation doesn't advance your cause. It's an unnecessary annoyance, and you're simply being dishonest when you say that street names don't matter.

>You mean the same Wikipedia page that says plantations are extensively linked with slavery in the American colonies, and even today plantations are associated with para-slavery? Wow, great investigative work. Really cracked the case with that one.

Yes, that article. By definition, plantations are simply crop-bearing areas with houses on them. Everything was a plantation before they started getting called "farms" in the North, well after Quinsigamond Plantation, for which the street was named, came into existence.

>When you say "people" you mean a handful of people like you with too much time on their hands and too much self-importance bemoaning how much everything is changing and it's all so difficult. So yes, all those people are pathetic too. I suggest you get a hobby or something since you apparently have so much free time on your hands that you need to vice-signal about street names to show how much you don't care about racism or whatever. I, for one, do actually have better things to do than listen to you rant.

You unironically call me pathetic and in need of a hobby because I'm engaged online on the same website that you're engaged in.

I'm guessing you don't actually interact with people outside academia, but if you do, you'll find people who are old enough to remember Crystal Park being called Crystal Park resenting its renaming, that people are split on Kilby Street. Try engaging with the public.

2

Itchy_Rock_726 t1_is3ectm wrote

Mr "you need to get a hobby" to OP and others....I see you have one...engaging like a mofo trying to score points owning the local 'conservatives.' you are so invested in this discussion. Which is fine....just don't try to throw out that line to your opponents when you're this invested yourself.

1

New-Vegetable-1274 t1_iryo3ys wrote

UMASS Medical complex sits on what was once a farm. It was the "poor farm" for the city's indigent of all races. Later it was a therapeutic farm for patients at the Worcester State Hospital. Both groups were cared for, housed and fed. Those groups now make up Worcester's homeless. Put your money where your mouth is UMASS and do something about real problems not some BS feel good renaming of a street.

4

Kirbyoto t1_iryqxld wrote

>Put your money where your mouth is UMASS and do something about real problems not some BS feel good renaming of a street.

Do you imagine this is an either/or scenario? If the street continues to be named "Plantation St", do you think this will help poor people and homeless people get help faster? Do you imagine that UMASS is choosing between feeding the homeless and renaming a street?

You can say it's a pointless publicity stunt, and I'd probably agree. But you're acting like renaming the street is somehow preventing them from giving aid to the homeless. It isn't. It's not even their street to rename, they're just saying that the city government should do it.

2

New-Vegetable-1274 t1_is5t1t4 wrote

I was pointing out the tiresome tilting at windmills that virtue signaling is. Don't you think that renaming a street in the name of social justice is a bit of a stretch? I can think of a million more things that are actually important that mostly get lip service. Worcester once effectively took care of the indigent and the insane on the acreage where UMASS stands, Do you think the individual who thought renaming the street was necessary even knows this? At the moment we are dealing with historic inflation and are headed into a bitter winter. The homeless are in a perpetual struggle and these two things will effect them more than any other segment of the population this year. I don't think Plantation St is on their list of things to worry about.

1

Kirbyoto t1_is5ucbs wrote

>I was pointing out the tiresome tilting at windmills that virtue signaling is. Don't you think that renaming a street in the name of social justice is a bit of a stretch? I can think of a million more things that are actually important that mostly get lip service.

Complaining about them renaming a street is just as stupid as fighting for the street to be renamed. Caring about this in any capacity is equally pointless. You can't talk about "tilting at windmills" when this is the kind of shit you get mad about.

>At the moment we are dealing with historic inflation and are headed into a bitter winter. The homeless are in a perpetual struggle and these two things will effect them more than any other segment of the population this year. I don't think Plantation St is on their list of things to worry about.

And yet it's on YOUR list of things to worry about, because you're here on the internet complaining about it instead of helping homeless people. So explain to me why it's different and why you don't have any obligation to spend your time wisely. I guarantee you have spent exactly as much time thinking about this as the UMASS personnel who submitted the proposal to city hall - which, by the way, was voted down anyways.

1

New-Vegetable-1274 t1_is8q5sx wrote

I was born and raised in Worcester but no longer live there but am appalled by the number of homeless there. I have a New Years ritual, every January I visit the Second Chance Animal Shelters and make a donation then trek to Worcester to Abby's House and Catholic Charities and donate at both. I wish I could do more but I'm retired and on a fixed income.

1

Kirbyoto t1_isb835g wrote

That's very nice of you. It also, again, has basically nothing to do with the topic at hand. UMASS was not choosing between "proposing a street name change" and "doing charity".

1

New-Vegetable-1274 t1_isck5v7 wrote

You said that I ought to be doing something about homelessness, I am, whereas some feel good BS renaming a street accomplishes what? So much oxygen is wasted on the whole woke thing. I agree with a lot of the issues but see what's actually being done as empty rhetoric. If it were something truly racist and offensive rather than a semantic dust up, who could argue with that? I wouldn't but I have to question UMASS's motives, capiche?

1

Kirbyoto t1_iscnf8n wrote

>You said that I ought to be doing something about homelessness, I am

I said "you're here on the internet complaining about it instead of helping homeless people", which is still true. The fact that you take some time out of your life to help homeless people is very admirable, but it doesn't take up 100% of your time. You have time to do other things, just like people at UMASS do. So if you accept that you're allowed to have time to do things besides help homeless people, guess what? So are they.

>So much oxygen is wasted on the whole woke thing

You're wasting it too! This is my point. You complain about "wasting time" but you are also wasting time in the exact same way. You could be helping homeless people right now, but you aren't. You're too busy wasting oxygen. People who post on Reddit frankly forfeit the right to use terms like "waste of time" because none of us actually care about our time.

>If it were something truly racist and offensive rather than a semantic dust up, who could argue with that?

Dude if it was the fucking Ku Klux Klan Boulevard guys like you would still be complaining about how it's "woke posturing" to try to change the name and how difficult it would be for the inhabitants of KKK Blvd to change their address labels.

1

New-Vegetable-1274 t1_isddr13 wrote

KKK guys like me? Nice. Well at least it confirms what kind of guy you are. " Ku Klux Klan Boulevard guys like you" tells me all I need to know about you.

1

Kirbyoto t1_isewfhu wrote

>KKK guys like me?

No, guys who only pretend to care about street names when those street names happen to represent any sort of conservative history. There would always be an excuse. The arguments you used to defend "Plantation St" would be used to defend any other sort of conservative street name too.

>Well at least it confirms what kind of guy you are.

I'm a guy who can recognize patterns, and in this case the pattern is that people only came out of the woodwork to care about a city issue when they detected the smell of "wokeness". You don't really care about anything else you're saying, you just see "wokeness" and you want it removed. You don't give a shit about wasted oxygen or helping the homeless or whatever. "I help the homeless once a year, therefore UMASS shouldn't be allowed to change a street name" is a hilariously incomprehensible statement and yet it is effectively the real argument you made in this discussion.

1

Itchy_Rock_726 t1_is3dom3 wrote

How about you? Anything better to do than fire off blow by blow retorts to OP? Cut the shit. So lame.

1

Kirbyoto t1_is5miib wrote

>Anything better to do than fire off blow by blow retorts to OP?

I don't think my time is particularly valuable, which is why I didn't start this discussion off by talking about people wasting their time. I'm happy to admit that I waste my time by talking to morons like you.

1