Submitted by taracus t3_ygfptx in askscience
elite4koga t1_iu8saa5 wrote
Reply to comment by Aseyhe in Is dark matter orbiting galaxies with the same speed as normal matter? by taracus
This answer is making some unstated assumptions about theoretical dark matter. I think for clarity it would be helpful to write out those assumptions here. Particle nature, certain mass range etc.
Dark matter has never been directly observed, to my knowledge there isn't even strong evidence of where its located. So the certainty of statements like "dark matter has no coherent motion" I think needs some caveats.
Aseyhe t1_iu8tdpt wrote
Sure, it holds for almost every dark matter model that we consider, including
- cold dark matter
- warm dark matter
- fuzzy dark matter (which is so light that quantum effects are important)
- primordial black holes or other massive objects
- self-interacting dark matter (with elastic collisions)
There are, however, "dissipative" dark matter models that are capable of losing energy through inelastic collisions. In those models, there would be a tendency to form disks over very long time scales. Since we know that dark matter halos are much more broadly extended than galaxies, the time scale for dark disk formation must be a lot longer than the time scale to form galactic disks, though.
Also, a dark matter particle that has a significant nongravitational interaction with ordinary matter could be dragged along with the disk. It's hard to reconcile this possibility with (1) absence of dark matter direct detection and (2) absence of dark matter creation in colliders, though.
> to my knowledge there isn't even strong evidence of where its located.
We have a fairly precise picture, e.g. https://academic.oup.com/mnras/article/494/3/4291/5821286
elite4koga t1_iu94rbt wrote
This is great info, exactly what I was looking for. Thanks for the follow up!
TastiSqueeze t1_iu9ia3a wrote
In some cases dark matter has been separated from the galaxy it was associated with and in a few cases is believed to rotate in the opposite direction as the host galaxy.
nuublarg t1_iu9u83h wrote
>In some cases dark matter has been separated from the galaxy it was associated
Isnt the bullet cluster famous for this?
Most_kinds_of_Dirt t1_iu9vd5b wrote
Yes, and possibly NGC 1052-DF2, as well.
Goodpie2 t1_iua7ga5 wrote
How do we even know that?
ViscountTinew t1_iuagdu0 wrote
Gravitational lensing is one way - even if we can't see the dark matter, we can notice the lensing of light passing around it if there's enough of the stuff.
The obvious example is the Bullet Cluster. It's two galaxies that collided with and passed through each other. It's been a while since the collision so there's a fair amount of space in between the two galaxies.
What's interesting about the bullet cluster is that the lensing effects appear to be focused around a point in between the two galaxies, in what appears to be empty space, rather than the galaxies themselves, implying a large invisible mass of dark matter that has been left behind since the collision.
PM_Me_Frosted_Tits t1_iuar47i wrote
How do we know that the mass is, in fact, dark matter?
What methods do they have at their disposal ruled out, say... A large field of interstellar medium that has coalesced since the event and wasn't dispersed by it for some reason unknown to the current model of galactic collisions?
From my understanding we haven't technically proven dark matter's existence yet. We see the effects of something and use the term "dark matter" to explain it, but do we know for sure that it isn't a secondary effect of something we can currently detect?
ViscountTinew t1_iub3gg1 wrote
Because whatever the mass is, it isn't emitting any light or blocking any light. Everything has a temperature and normal matter should be detectable in some wavelength or another, especially in the amount needed to create the lensing effects. A cloud of dust and gas massive enough to cause the lensing would be easily visible in the radio/far-infrared spectrums.
PM_Me_Frosted_Tits t1_iubbkah wrote
I figured there was some reaction I just wasn't aware of that they've used, I didn't even think of things like friction between molecules as being enough to detect against the background of space at that distance.
I appreciate it, this is what I was hoping someone would be able to explain.
Natural_Pressure6329 t1_iubfq4w wrote
This brings a question to my mind. There is a “neutral” point between two masses, it’s the point at which the two gravitational forces sort of level out (I forgot the proper name), could this be the cause of the lensing being centered there?
ryry1237 t1_iubg437 wrote
Presumably any earlier calculations would already be done with this in mind and the math doesn't add up with just ordinary matter.
Putnam3145 t1_iuayg6d wrote
Interstellar medium undergoes more friction than our observations would allow.
PM_Me_Frosted_Tits t1_iub1rf9 wrote
Meaning we'd see something in the Infrared range because of heat produced during friction?
forte2718 t1_iu93rqv wrote
>Dark matter has never been directly observed, ...
I'd like to point out here that the known neutrinos qualify as (hot) dark matter, and other than their very light mass / relativistic speeds, they have essentially identical properties to the cold dark matter that we haven't yet directly observed. So from a definitions standpoint, we have in fact directly observed a form of dark matter (and we regularly produce it in labs for the purpose of studying it). The reason I mention this fact is because people seem to have a common misconception that dark matter is some kind of farfetched, esoteric hypothesis that makes it different from everything that we actually do know, when the reality is that it's incredibly similar to some of the things that we do already definitely know — so similar in fact that one of the leading hypotheses for a cold dark matter particle candidate is in fact a heavy neutrino.
>... to my knowledge there isn't even strong evidence of where its located. So the certainty of statements like "dark matter has no coherent motion" I think needs some caveats.
I'd now also like to point out just how overwhelming the evidence for dark matter is. Contrary to what you've said, we do in fact have multiple ways to measure the bulk properties and behavior of dark matter with enough sensitivity to narrow in on its locations, densities, velocity distribution, speed distribution, etc. This sort of evidence comes from about a dozen completely independent metrics:
- Galaxy rotation curves
- Velocity dispersions of stars in galaxies
- Gravitational lensing and microlensing surveys
- X-ray spectra from gas-heavy galaxy clusters
- The angular power spectrum of the CMB
- The matter power spectrum and rates of structure formation in the early universe
- Observations of more than a dozen colliding galaxy clusters, including the Bullet Cluster, Abell 520, NGC 1052-DF2, and many others
- Reconciling type Ia supernova distance measurements with the observed flatness of the universe's shape
- Galaxy redshift surveys
- Spectral measurements of the Lyman-Alpha forest for distant galaxies
... and there are even more things not mentioned in this list as well. What really drives the nail home is that all of these completely independent metrics are all in close agreement as to exactly how much dark matter there is, how it is distributed, and what most all of its bulk properties and behavior are. When you have such a wealth of evidence where all of it is unequivocably pointing toward the same explanation ... there's just no reasonable excuse to deny it.
It may be true that we haven't directly detected individual cold dark matter particles, but that doesn't mean we haven't detected the direct consequences of the existence of cold dark matter in bulk. The various observational signals supporting the existence of cold dark matter are clear, robust, and all consistent with each other. Among honest researchers as well as honest laypeople who have an interest in science, there really can be no doubt that dark matter exists and has all of the properties that we've undisputably discovered it to have.
Edit: think about it like this. Many hundreds of years ago, people didn't know what the mechanism underlying fire was. Some people postulated the existence of a light, flammable fluid inside most forms of matter called phlogiston; others sought out different alchemic explanations. At the time, nobody knew what fire actually was at a microscopic level; they didn't know about oxygen, combusion, or chemistry in general. But do you think anybody working on the problem at the time would have denied the existence of fire? Of course not — all you had to do was rub some sticks together to prove that fire clearly existed! You don't need to have a microscopic understanding of fire in order to know with certainty that fire exists, because you can clearly see the bulk behavior of fire with your own eyes. The situation is similar with dark matter, today: we may not know what its microscopic description is yet, but we can see the macroscopic evidence very clearly with our various telescopes and instruments that are designed for making precision measurements of the cosmos. The evidence we see for dark matter's existence is quite clear and undeniable.
menntu t1_iu99t8u wrote
Krikey, mate - you are a refreshing trove of superb information. Truly appreciate the explanations.
forte2718 t1_iu9bgab wrote
Thanks, I'm glad you found it helpful. :) Cheers!
elite4koga t1_iu973f3 wrote
I wasn't attempting to refute dark matter as a particle or come off as a MOND supporter, I just wanted the poster to provide more info about the knowns vs unknowns when responding to the question.
forte2718 t1_iu995o2 wrote
That's fine. I was just responding to try and correct some of the misconceptions in what you said — about dark matter never being directly observed (it has), about us not having strong evidence about its location (which we do), about the certainty of statements about dark matter's other properties, etc.
A lot of this info is outlined in encyclopedia articles like Wikipedia's, so it's pretty accessible. We get a lot of boneheads who won't even do that tiny amount of research before insisting that dark matter is some kind of hoax or fudge factor, so apologies if I stomped on your foot there, that wasn't my intention. I was just trying to respond to the things you said and point out that they aren't correct, lest those misconceptions propagate and get even further out of control. :(
Throwaway_97534 t1_iu9gtyo wrote
If we were in space at relative rest and there was an earth-mass chunk of dark matter that wandered into our path, does that mean we would suddenly find ourselves falling toward it for seemingly no reason?
I'm assuming we haven't observed dark matter at smaller than galactic scales, but I'm wondering if the current theories and observations allow for smaller amounts as well.
Can we run into planet-sized bits of dark matter just like we can run into planet-sized primordial black holes? One of the theories is that we haven't observed a 9th planet in the solar system that's shepherding trans-neptunian objects because it may actually be a primordial black hole... Could it also be a small bit of dark matter?
forte2718 t1_iu9iwcn wrote
>If we were in space at relative rest ...
At relative rest with respect to what? Remember ... all speeds are relative to other things! :)
>... and there was an earth-mass chunk of dark matter that wandered into our path, ...
Dark matter doesn't really clump up the way ordinary matter does. The only way you would get this is if dark matter happens to be in the form of "MACHOs" (massive compact halo objects) such as black holes, but that hypothesis has almost been completely ruled out except for a range of masses that excludes things anywhere near the Earth's mass. So, this just isn't an actual possibility, I'm afraid!
>... does that mean we would suddenly find ourselves falling toward it for seemingly no reason?
We would feel its gravitational effects, yes. If you had something like an Earth-mass MACHO, it could do things like disrupt orbits, to the extent that something of Earth mass can do so (naturally something like the Sun or Jupiter wouldn't be significantly affected, but smaller planets would).
>I'm assuming we haven't observed dark matter at smaller than galactic scales, but I'm wondering if the current theories and observations allow for smaller amounts as well.
Unfortunately, not really ... at least, not also in grouped clumps that are within a few orders of magnitude of the Earth's mass. You can have smaller amounts if it is very diffuse (like axions or neutrinos or some other particulate form that doesn't interact electromagnetically) but not if it clumps up due to an interaction of some kind.
>Can we run into planet-sized bits of dark matter just like we can run into planet-sized primordial black holes?
That's a hard no, unfortunately. The observational evidence (at least that which I am aware of) excludes as a form of dark matter MACHOs including primordial black holes in the mass range of 10^(-8) Earth masses or higher. [1]
>One of the theories is that we haven't observed a 9th planet in the solar system that's shepherding things because it may actually be a primordial black hole... Could it also be a small bit of dark matter?
It and things like it couldn't be a significant form of dark matter, no. I don't see why it couldn't be a black hole though, whether primordial or otherwise.
Hope that helps,
Throwaway_97534 t1_iu9mfnr wrote
It does, thank you!
Victra_au_Julii t1_iuaj791 wrote
>about dark matter never being directly observed (it has),
Do you mean a type of dark matter has been observed? That doesn't mean this particular observation is the dark matter that is responsible for the differences in our calculations - measurements for galaxies.
forte2718 t1_iuao3ig wrote
>Do you mean a type of dark matter has been observed?
Yes as I explained two posts prior, we have observed dark matter directly — three types of dark matter, in fact: the electron neutrino, muon neutrino, and tau neutrino.
>That doesn't mean this particular observation is the dark matter that is responsible for the differences in our calculations - measurements for galaxies.
Yes, I explained that too, also in the second to previous post. Perhaps you should go back and read it!
Victra_au_Julii t1_iubkfor wrote
I was being tongue in cheek. No we have not observed dark matter, as in, the dark matter that makes the massive difference in mass observed in the universe. Those things you mentioned are not what makes up most Dark Matter.
[deleted] t1_iubmkzm wrote
[removed]
scientist4321 t1_iua04as wrote
Part of the hesitation is that we’ve been down this road before with “ether”, in pre-relativistic times. It was nearly consensus that ether existed and was necessary to explain light and radio, but unfortunately nobody was able to find it. And then those pesky experiments about the speed of light, and the kid from the patent office.
I’m far from an expert, and dark matter seems from what you write proven by many independent sources. But, I can guess, for many, it smells like an esoteric substance stubbornly refusing to be directly identified.
forte2718 t1_iua84oa wrote
The difference between aether and dark matter is that with aether theories, experiment after experiment showed repeatedly that it didn't exist, or at least didn't work the way it was supposed to. There was Fizeau's experiment in 1851 which largely ruled out any aether drag effects, the Michelson—Morley experiment in 1887 which established the constancy of the speed of light and ruled out the aether wind hypothesis, the Trouton–Noble experiment in 1903, the Rayleigh and Brace experiments between 1902 and 1904, ... there was a wealth of experimental evidence available showing the problems with aether models. Also it wasn't "nearly consensus" that aether existed, there was quite a lot of debate all throughout that period as to whether light was a wave (one that travelled in a presumed medium — an aether of some sort) or whether light was a particle or "corpuscule" (and hence a form of matter that did not require a medium within which to propagate). Various people proposed either/both wave- or particle-based theories of light and experiments continued to both confirm and refute aspects of each proposed model, all the way from their inception into the early 20th century. The problems with both kinds of models only really began to start being resolved with the advent of early quantum mechanics and the emergence of wave-particle duality as a feature in physics.
With the dark matter situation however, you have dozens of kinds of observations that are all in general agreement about dark matter, while those same observations are largely contradicted by the predictions of modified-gravity models. Unlike with the aether, this isn't a situation where nobody's model fits all the data; with dark matter there is a clear matter-based model that does fit all of the data, and then a bunch of alternative models that don't. That's a pretty huge difference.
>I’m far from an expert, and dark matter seems from what you write proven by many independent sources. But, I can guess, for many, it smells like an esoteric substance stubbornly refusing to be directly identified.
And this is the crux of the public relations issue on this topic: really only the people who are "far from experts" who aren't actually familiar with all of the evidence feel that way. Among actual experts, the consensus is that dark matter exists and that modified gravity models don't actually work. The only people who really have a problem with dark matter anymore are the ones who are uninformed about it. :(
throw_every_away t1_iuau5oh wrote
I always thought that we only knew dark matter existed because of the space where we knew it “should” be. I didn’t know we had models of its actual makeup. That’s pretty dang cool, when did this happen?
forte2718 t1_iub3tz8 wrote
Uhhh ... it's been happening for basically as long as we've known dark matter existed? The first real evidence for dark matter started coming in almost 100 years ago, in the 1930s and 1940s. The earliest dark matter models were overly simple — just treating galaxies as if they had extra mass — and they had various problems. Throughout the following decades, models of the cosmos became increasingly sophisticated ... and increasingly conflicted, as every model had some seemingly irreconcilable problems (regardless of dark matter) so it wasn't clear which model was the correct, or even the closest to correct. As I understand it, during the early 1980s the first modern models of dark matter were proposed, with distributions not matching those of baryonic matter. And with the discovery of the accelerating expansion of the universe and the need for a cosmological constant or some other form of dark energy, in the late 1980s / early 1990s, enough evidence had come in for cosmologists to hone in on a model that resolved all the issues with the previous competing models — this model is known the Lambda-CDM model (lambda is the symbol for the cosmological constant term in the Einstein field equations, and CDM stands for "cold dark matter"); it is also known as the "concordance model" because it gracefully resolved all the outstanding problems with the previous models of cosmology, and fit the data much better than any of those other models. Since that time, this model has become known as the "standard model of cosmology" and has stood out as effectively the only model that actually works and fits all of the data. Dark matter has been a part of that model since its inception in the early 90s, and in the three decades since all sorts of tweaks, additions, and parameterizations of that model (including its dark matter aspect) have been explored ... as well as many alternative models, none of which have panned out and found success at fitting all of the data well.
So dark matter has been an accepted part of the modern model of cosmology for at least 3 decades and we've had all manners of more complicated models (and attempts at alternative models) developed during that time. All sorts of supercomputing simulations of structure formation in the cosmos have been run and their statistics compared to observational datasets, with gradual refinement of the narrower strokes as new data has come in from missions like WMAP and the Planck spacecraft.
In summary, it's been happening this entire time because that's what cosmologists do — that's their job. It's not like they've been slacking off for half a century; there are tens of thousands of cosmologists and astrophysicists worldwide who have been working on it doing formal research and experimentation/observation for their entire professional careers. :)
Tupcek t1_iucdh83 wrote
may I ask, is there a lot of dark matter in our solar system, or anywhere near, so we can study it up close in the coming decades or centuries?
forte2718 t1_iud50dw wrote
There isn't a lot, no. Dark matter is very diffuse; in all likelihood there is some streaming through the planet every second of every day, but since it doesn't really interact with baryonic matter much if at all (similar to how neutrinos don't), studying it would be exceedingly difficult. There have been many experiments similar to current neutrino detectors looking for dark matter interactions but none have been found to date.
Tupcek t1_iud62yn wrote
thanks!
bmrheijligers t1_iu9ji01 wrote
I love the thoroughness of your deconstruction. The point i believe that was trying to be made is that the name dark matter implies the assumption that it must be some kind of matter. An understandable one, as so far we know only of gravity associated with matter.
An assumption non the less.
forte2718 t1_iu9kmzi wrote
Well, if it makes you feel any better, we've also explored every other type of possibility that is allowed:
- scalar field models, like the Higgs field
- vector field models, like electromagnetism and the strong and weak interactions
- tensor field models, like general relativity and modifications of it
- supersymmetric matter models
These, together with ordinary matter models, are exhaustive of what the allowed possibilities are, at least for particle forms of dark matter (keeping in mind that aggregate forms, such as black holes and other MACHOs, have also been largely ruled out except for within a range of very small masses). There are also combinations of these, such as TeVeS (which gets its name from combining tensor, vector, and scalar fields).
To date, the only types of models that have succeeded at explaining all of the observational evidence are matter-based models (and possibly some of the more contrived supersymmetric matter models, I am not super familiar with those but I assume they operate similarly to matter models — what I do know is that the most minimal supersymmetric models have been observationally ruled out and to date there remains zero evidence for supersymmetry in nature ... though not for lack of trying; discovering supersymmetric particles was one of the goals of the LHC, as well as other experiments).
So, it's not so much an assumption, so much as "we've explored all of the other possibilities and this is the only possibility that actually works."
XKCD wrote a comic about this. There seems to be this popular misconception that we just assumed it was matter because that's simple. No, we "assume" it is matter because virtually every other possibility has been heavily explored and every single one of them has failed to fit all the data even in the most contrived circumstances. Dark matter is really the only game in town, it is the only model of all the thousands that have been explored which fits all of the data.
[deleted] t1_iujvhmq wrote
[removed]
Great-Profession689 t1_iu9z3lu wrote
>It may be true that we haven't directly detected individual cold dark matter particles, but that doesn't mean we haven't detected the direct consequences of the existence of cold dark matter in bulk.
It may be true what we haven't yet explained the bullet cluster, but that doesn't mean we haven't detected direct consequences of the existence of modified gravity :)
forte2718 t1_iua9lx1 wrote
The difference is that the Bullet cluster is an observation that needs to be explained for you to have a viable model of the cosmos. Any model which cannot explain it is not viable.
Dark matter models can explain it ... and also can explain all of the other observational data. Dark matter models are viable.
There is no known model of modified gravity that is viable. Every one that has been proposed to date is either too vague to make novel testable predictions (in which case you can't really call it a model to begin with), or it has made novel testable predictions that were found to be in conflict with observations, leading to the proposed model being falsified.
[deleted] t1_iuaplpi wrote
[removed]
Astrokiwi t1_iu917n4 wrote
It's kind of the other way around - these are the observational constraints on what dark matter has to be, assuming they are governed by known physics.
[deleted] t1_iu8shur wrote
[removed]
HunkyMump t1_iu9894h wrote
A side question: because dark matter interact with gravity, can we then infer that dark matter particles that do interact with gravity, are limited to the speed of light in the same way regular matter does?
Fewluvatuk t1_iu9dxfd wrote
We don't have to assume. The speed of causality applies to everything in the universe regardless of its properties.
[deleted] t1_iua1nma wrote
[removed]
Viewing a single comment thread. View all comments