Some people may complain about forced diversity, but this is likely due to their indoctrination by current political climates, rather than any legitimate grievances. It is important to remember that a good story should be the focus, not the skin color of background characters or even the diversity of the main cast. In fact, in a fictional world that is not based on real people, there is no reason not to have diverse characters in both main and supporting roles. Those who believe that diverse representation is pandering are likely unaware of the pandering that has been directed towards white men for so long that it has become normalized. Ultimately, the quality of the story should be what matters most, not the race or ethnicity of the characters.
Comments
Skinjob985 t1_jdhpp3n wrote
Maybe I'm wrong, but I can't help but feel like this is a direct reference to all the virtue signaling over the casting of the Rings of Power show and the incredibly lazy dismissal of anyone who points out how ham-fistedly it was implemented as a racist neckbeard. I've been on Reddit long enough to know a shit-stirrer when I see one...
ESRDONHDMWF t1_jdirfdw wrote
As long as there’s a reasonable explanation for the diversity. Large trading city? Not gonna bat an eye at all types of people. Isolated village in the mountains? Makes no sense.
---teacher--- t1_jdlzqyv wrote
Wheel of Time feels personally attacked.
Orkekum t1_jdlpjck wrote
Counter argument, depends on the story. The diverse person may be an exotic escaped slave, runaway lover, criminal in hiding.
He may look/act/speak different, but villagers has acc epted him(as their darl cult leader as he has a dorect contact with their dead god) i meam accepted him as their own as he is hard working, kind and polite
ESRDONHDMWF t1_jdlzrji wrote
As i said, if there’s a reasonable explanation I have absolutely no issue
Bonezone420 t1_je7vpkj wrote
So what's the reasonable explanation for wizards and dragons?
ESRDONHDMWF t1_je7x149 wrote
Depends on the story. In LoTR wizards are essentially gods who are embodied to help in the fight against Sauron. Dragons were bred in ancient times to help fight wars.
Bonezone420 t1_je7zkh6 wrote
It's real cool how suspension of disbelief allows you to accept "gods are just here now" more readily than "brown people live here".
Business_Resort9065 t1_jdhli6x wrote
Personally, I would rather read something that an author actually wants to write about and convey whatever message it is they want to and not what everyone wants them to write. And if I don't like it then I won't read it. Don't you think that pushing some sort of check list on an author in what belief, views and perspective they need to have is taking away from their art and making it more about what you want?
BwanaAzungu t1_jdhfi2g wrote
Counterpoint:
There is no reason to bring race or racial attributes into a fantastical story in the first place, unless it serves the narrative.
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We can describe people's features without mentioning racial traits. For example, why mention skin colour at all? "A tall figure, with a strong yet agile built, and a slender face with a gentle smile".
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It's more interesting to describe people by cultural aspects that are subjected to choice, instead of racial aspects that one is born with. Don't mention the black hair or sunkissed skin of the princess, mentioned the detailed embroidery on her sand-coloured silken robe, and the different metals and jewels in her jewelry. Perhaps she has tattoos.
Of course many stories focus on overcoming racial differences. I wholeheartedly agree, a diverse cast is paramount to that. In this case, it is important to establish that there are indeed different races, what the differences are, and strong animosity between the races; such that the main cast can rise above it first, and racial differences at large can be challenged and overcome later. In this case, it serves the narrative to include all these racial aspects.
TheDustOfMen t1_jdhz29m wrote
Describing someone having "black hair" or "sun-kissed skin" aren't exactly unique racial aspects that one is born with, but I have seen writers avoid describing the colour of one's skin for example. Works well I think.
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WasabiCrush t1_jdhfksy wrote
Probably safe to say anyone with a personality shored up in politics to the point they’re complaining about diversity in fantasy writing is a lost cause.
Their favorite writers fuel agenda-driven media outlets and that’s all they’ll ever need, thank you very much.
sisharil t1_jdichlt wrote
I think it is uncalled for to suggest that the only people who care about seeing diversity and representation are "shored up in politics" to the point of being a "lost cause", and that the only possible answer to a desire for diversity and representation is tokenistic lip service (which is how I am charitably interpreting what you mean when you say "agenda driven media").
Unthinking tokenism for diversity points and substituting the presence of representation for an actual compelling plot or characterization IS a problem that crops up a lot in subpar modern media. It's become part of the wider trend of publishers and producers and such going for formulaic trash that meets algorithms to be most likely to rake in viewers and money, rather than promoting art that is actually trying to say or convey something (even just something so simple as "an interesting story that doesn't read like a barely fleshed out Standard Narrative Arc from a how-to book on writing").
But that isn't the same as representation and diversity - and wanting to see that representation and diversity - being inherently tokenistic or money-grabbing. I, and I'm sure many other people who appreciate diversity in stories am as tired as anyone else of seeing books and media promoted on their supposed diversity points alone, without any attention paid to the actual plot or characterization. People who belong to minority groups shouldn't be reduced to stereotypical Representations of That Group, we are all whole people who deserve to be acknowledged and presented as such.
I also really fucking hate the way booktwitter, which is full of the most idiotic brownie-points chasing assholes with only the most surface level understanding of social justice or activism, has impacted the publishing industry and the way people approach stories. As if everything is down to problematic vs wholesome, and any exploration of nuance or complexity or anything is "problematic" and deserves to be canceled. I loathe that shit.
kornychris2016 t1_jdhj8rb wrote
The logical reason is that's how the author wrote it. That author has their own views, beliefs, ideas and imagination.
It's only logical that they write what they want to write.
FightGlobalNorming t1_jdhn5th wrote
If we're talking about things that they change from books to movies or something of that nature I'd say that the race of the characters is one of the least egregious changes they can make. At most they get any form of description on skin color in a couple fleeting descriptive passages with no bearing on the story whatsoever, and I am much more concerned about staying true to other, more important parts that actually make the story
kornychris2016 t1_jdhpejg wrote
If we are talking about changes made when filming a movie based off a book I think it completely depends.
Is the film an adaptation, inspired by, desired to stay faithful or desired to take liberties.
I think it's a case by case scenario. Completely dependent on the works and intentions.
If you are directing a by the numbers secrete agent spy story, it doesn't really matter what the race of the main character is, unless the race has true actual impact on the story.
If you are doing an epic fantasy that has various rich detailed, races, classes, worlds and its own set of rules and politics, you cannot just willy nilly change whatever you want just because you want more diversity. One could argue that world already has its own diversity. You cannot take your own political ideology and change the context of what your filming just because you want to.
It's just completely dependent on the story, the director, the intent and the goal.
FightGlobalNorming t1_jdhpust wrote
The stories with all this diversity almost always include a human or humanesque race as well, why can't that human race also be diverse like it is in real life?
Edit: like I get that there are elves and dwarves and Hobbits and all that, but these are all very humanesque species. It stands to reason that there are others of their species developed in other parts of the world, and as such would probably react similarly to humans as evolving and would evolve differently. These stories often involve a long journey, so I'd expect them to encounter different races of their own species
kornychris2016 t1_jdi52ow wrote
The answer to "why can't that human race also be diverse like it is in real life "
It's not real life. It's fantasy. A story made up in somebody's head.
Again, the author writes what they want to write. If you don't like a particular story because because it lacks diversity according to your ideology, find an author who shares the same, or write your own.
I'm all for a more diverse world. Instead of white washing or black washing and what not. I think a epic fantasy tale today would most likely include what you desire. But the works that any fantasy is inspired by is simply a product of its time.
It's just completely situational. There is no always right or always wrong in this matter.
But to answer the OP question of the logic, it's simple. Whoever wrote it, can write what they want. It's their imagination.
FightGlobalNorming t1_jdir9q2 wrote
I feel like the only writers who would be opposed to it are the racist ones, because as I said it has no bearing on the story. And how much do I really care about their opinions on that matter? When you produce a piece of art like a novel, especially in genres like fantasy, you're creating it in the hopes that people will love it and will immerse themselves in it and use their imagination in this fantasy land. If people love it and they stay true to the important parts of the story they should be thrilled more people are imagining their diverse selves into that world no matter their race. And at some point when you introduce a fantasy world into the public, if and when it becomes so loved it inspires movies and adaptations, feeling anything other than pride and fulfillment in bringing joy to others and just being mad about what color the characters are, well then you can pretty much go fuck yourself
kornychris2016 t1_jdisck7 wrote
I wouldn't put it as drastic and hateful as you. An American writer in today's society would probably be more inclined to write more diverse.
But America is not the only country in the world that has writers and today's society is not what it use to be through history.
FightGlobalNorming t1_jdixumh wrote
I didn't put it hatefully. The best description towards my feelings on those people and their opinions is apathy. I also don't care what country or culture they're from, racism from one corner of the globe is as abhorrent as racism from any other. And why defend their hatred by insulting what you misjudged as my hatred? At least racists deserve to he hated
Heraclius_3433 t1_jdib1bk wrote
I’m actually a fan of diversity if it’s included to add value to the story/narrative. Like in “The Expanse” where “racial diversity” isn’t about skin color, rather about whether you were born on Earth, Mars, or the belt, and physical differences are the affect of the gravity level you were raised in. This adds a uniqueness to the story and is also contextually fitting.
Problem is most modern stories just include diversity for the sake of diversity itself while not adding anything of value to the story. “Look, I have a black man in my book. Sure it doesn’t make any contextual sense and I won’t explain why there is this one black man among whites, but he’s there so you know I’m not racist.”
SilverChances t1_jdhr5z8 wrote
Ugh, I'm more likely to complain of crude trolling, bland lecturing and clumsy virtue-signalling than I am of forced diversity
ItsBoughtnotBrought t1_jdhrfj5 wrote
What a fantasy world like Tolkien, who set out to create a mythology for Britain? Where it is set in pre-history before the world became inter-mingled? He explicitly stated many times that Middle-Earth would become England as the ages went on. He has other human races like the Easterlings who are clearly meant to represent a different ethnicity. His characters are definitely not meant to be ethnically diverse.
chummybuckett t1_jdi8gsj wrote
I think that fantasy and sci-fi as genres both often face the tension of "what is explicitly possible due to the established laws of the author's world" vs "what we're just going to let pass because it's fantasy."
In a book or series that puts particular effort and focus into world-building, the evolution and establishment of different types of creatures, cultural groups, and races is often a part of the story, and it serves to better explain the fictional universe. This is absolutely not any type of justification for a book in which every character is euro-centric. But it does help explain the grievances that consumers have when a world with specific limitations on travel and cultural fusion (pre-industrialized, we'll say) features isolated villages with a set of characters that look like a college brochure.
That being said, I would be interested in more examples of this type of reaction for an actual book series rather than an Amazon or Netflix adaptation, because I imagine you're mostly referencing the latter.
sisharil t1_jdhxo5r wrote
I think it depends on what the story is going for.
Colorblind casting in a story like Princess Bride or Stardust, where the entire thing is a completely fantastical escapade that isn't supposed to have any realistic worldbuilding, absolutely. Or even something like Bridgerton, where the period setting is really just elaborate set dressing for a story that isn't supposed to be even remotely grounded in real historical context.
In a context where the worldbuilding of how and where different populations came to be is important to the story, instead of colorblind casting it would be nice to see some acknowledgement that different ethnic backgrounds have some meaning for the people who come from them. For example, the Six of Crows duology has a diverse cast whose backgrounds matter and their existence in the main setting of Ketterdam makes sense with it being a merchant hub. This is a good way of bringing in diversity that doesn't feel thoughtless and tokenistic.
I think it's better to acknowledge that where people come from and how they look actually does matter in the course of their life and can't just be brushed over and ignored in a serious fantasy story that cares about other aspects of worldbuilding.
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hatersaurusrex t1_jdhgrwx wrote
Who has complained about this being done in a book? And which book?
boxer_dogs_dance t1_jdhii0a wrote
I am only familiar with this rising to the level of controversy in films and video games.
Ground2ChairMissile t1_jdho9aj wrote
The kinds of people who complain about this usually aren't big on reading.
They prefer their books at 451 degrees.
boxer_dogs_dance t1_jdhoyqy wrote
Pratchett did diversity well in his depiction of Ankh Morpork. So did Guy Gavriel Kay in Lions of Al Rassan. I get annoyed when authors don't provide a reason for diversity, or a back story, unless the setting is an immigrant country like Australia or the US. But I am not going to publicly complain about it. It's just a pedantic nitpick in my head cannon.
Ground2ChairMissile t1_jdi97hc wrote
> I get annoyed when authors don't provide a reason for diversity
A wizard did it.
There, now you're all set for literally any book that doesn't feature 100% white people and also doesn't feel a need to provide an explanation for why.
IncidentFuture t1_jdhv2t1 wrote
It doesn't even need to be an immigrant country. Although mass immigration is obviously a cause. A lot of countries have different ethnic groups because of past migration and conquest.
Even in countries that people assume are homogenous, different areas have a different language used historically (if not currently) and cultural or ethnic\racial differences.
In their rush to have contemporary diversity in their setting they fail to consider why such diversity exists. Not because it cannot, but because interesting world building and stories come with answering why it's there.
sisharil t1_jdhxs4l wrote
>In their rush to have contemporary diversity in their setting they fail to consider why such diversity exists. Not because it cannot, but because interesting world building and stories come with answering why it's there.
This, this is it exactly.
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Skinjob985 t1_jdhnyuo wrote
I think most average readers are intelligent enough to tell the difference between self-aggrandizing virtue signaling and diversity in a story because that is the way the author wrote it. I think the issue that most people had with The Rings of Power was that the writers were incredibly lazy in implementing their forced diversity, rather than using the already established world and history of Middle Earth to write in the diverse characters.
Instead of having it make anthropological sense they are asking the viewer to suspend their disbelief that there is only one black elf, one black dwarf, a couple black hobbits and no explanation as to why this is the case. Tolkien wrote extensively about different peoples of color inhabiting his fantasy world. All the writers had to do was use this already established backstory to write in these characters in a way that made sense anthropologically and historically within the world. Instead they would rather pat themselves on the back that they are "woke".
This is the same reason they felt the need to announce the genitalia of all the directors for the second seasons episodes. As if that had anything to do with their ability to direct. It's the writers that care more about their political agenda than staying true to the source material and actually writing a good story. The idea that anyone who questions this incredibly lazy writing must be a neck-bearded basement- dwelling racist incel would be comical if it wasn't so sad and pathetic. These kinds of dismissals are made by people who have zero defense of all the honest constructive criticisms of the show. I can't help but feel like that's what the OP was referencing even if he didn't come right out and say it.
Literally no one cares about racial diversity in fantasy writing. What people care about is not having their intelligence insulted by incredibly lazy writers who care more about their political agenda than they do about remaining faithful to the foundations of the entire fantasy subgenre.
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cronenburj t1_jdidvh4 wrote
Theyre correct
Skinjob985 t1_jdivek7 wrote
Wish I could see what the reply to my comment says. Got to love cowards who so lack the courage of their own convictions they have to block you before you can even read their response. 🙄
hatersaurusrex t1_jdiwyy8 wrote
Unddit and reveddit are your friend.
Just replace 'reddit.com' with 'unddit.com' or 'reveddit.com' and leave the rest of the url the same, and the truth will be revealed to you.
Skinjob985 t1_jdix6om wrote
Thanks! Learn something new every day.
InvisibleSpaceVamp t1_jdhm5p5 wrote
The logical reason might be, that "people of different races" - by this I guess you mean humans, not dwarfs of elves - just don't exist in a fantasy world. I mean, if you look at human history - the reason why human "races" exist at all is because of migration to different parts of the planet where different types of features were better for survival. In a fictional universe, this might not have happened (yet).
sisharil t1_jdhy4ff wrote
In such a setting there shouldn't be any white people, as pale skin didn't develop until fairly recently.
Lol, why is this getting downvoted? If you are so concerned with realism and logic, you have to understand that the only setting where people haven't traveled far enough away from one another for long enough to develop different racial attributes is one where white people have never come into existence.
People down voting this are REALLY not helping their case that they totally aren't racists for hating diversity in books.
InvisibleSpaceVamp t1_jdilap5 wrote
>In such a setting there shouldn't be any white people, as pale skin didn't develop until fairly recently.
You are talking about earth, the real world. In a fictional world, it could work the other way round as well. Light skinned races becoming darker over time if they migrate to a sunnier part of their planet.
sisharil t1_jdiot0p wrote
And then what's the explanation of how humanity came to be in the first place?
Any worldbuilding that suggests white people were the originals and everyone else came later is both completely inaccurate to how humanity actually evolved, and uncomfortably in line with deeply racist thinking from the 19th century to explain the different human phenotypes.
If you want to us "oooh just evolution!!" as an explanation then actually follow it. Darker skin is the default setting for humans.
InvisibleSpaceVamp t1_jdiuw65 wrote
We are talking about FANTASY here, not earth's humanity. Is this so hard to understand?
I would like to see some scientific evidence for your claims though. Why is Africa the only place where the human race could have developed? Why couldn't this have happened in another place? And if we knew the perfect conditions for the human race to develop (spoiler - we don't), why is it not possible for these conditions to be found in a darker and colder part on our FANTASY planet?
sisharil t1_jdjy8yq wrote
You know it's kind of a little fucked up to treat "a world with only white people" as an acceptable fantasy and concept to promote as totally normal. Right?
Also. Humans are a type of great ape, and great apes evolved in Africa. There are no naturally occurring great apes in the low-sun temperate climates where pale skin developed in humans.
If your goal was to prove people complaining about diversity aren't racist assholes, you are really not helping get that across at all.
InvisibleSpaceVamp t1_jdjzdl3 wrote
You know it's kind of a little fucked up that you are not able to separate FANTASY and reality. Right?
sisharil t1_jdjzqvm wrote
Dude. What part of "in this fantasy world black people just don't exist because that's my personal fantasy vision" is NOT fucking racist?
Don't get me wrong. I don't think there's anything wrong with a story set in a place where there happen to only be white people. In an isolated village or whatever that makes perfect sense. But there's a difference between "in this setting, these characters have no reason to come into contact with people from other ethnic backgrounds that aren't what we would see as white" and "actually only white people exist in this world because white is the default normal for humanity"
Character_Vapor t1_jdlia3t wrote
You selecting a default for a fantasy world still has its own implications about your point of view. You get that, right? It doesn’t matter that it’s not the real world, what you choose as the baseline for your own made-up world reflects something about its creator, whether you want it to or not.
386processor t1_jdhqu58 wrote
What if the story is set in a world of dragons and magic, but also the ethnicity of a character has contextual implications?
PeterchuMC t1_jdjy0xy wrote
>Racism was not a problem on the Discworld, because -- what with trolls and dwarfs and so on -- speciesism was more interesting. Black and white lived in perfect harmony and ganged up on green.
There's always at least one quote from Discworld for every situation.
[deleted] t1_jdhlfat wrote
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GraniteGeekNH t1_jdhnesg wrote
Shouldn't need to be said, but it does. Alas.
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agentOO0 t1_jdkt22r wrote
Is this actually a big issue in books? I know the topic of forced diversity pops up in discussions of TV adaptions of books, like House of the Dragon, but I haven't heard people complain much about it when it comes to the books themselves.
I mean, I've never heard anyone say something like, Lord of the Rings could have been a decent book, but it just really needed more black, gay dwarves.
OP, which books are you talking about in particular?
Character_Vapor t1_jdli1di wrote
“i ThInK iTs A rEaSoNaBlE cOmPlAiNt If ThE fAntAsY WoRlD iS cLeArLy bAsEd On EUrOpE oR EnGlAnD”
I haven’t even read the comments yet but I assume someone said some dumb shit like that.
nihilfit t1_jdlxsq4 wrote
I think this is more complicated than most people seem to recognize here. In the first place, race is not a biological category. This means that referring to race, even in a fictional story, will be based on social conventions of thinking (falsely or mistakenly) that people belong to distinct racial groups on the basis of, presumably, skin color. And it's hard to see how such views could arise, at least not without a very complicated back story. There could, of course, be geographically-isolated populations of humans or human-like creatures, and in these populations certain characteristics might be more common than in other geographically-isolated populations. But if that's the case, then these populations will not, except very rarely, interact, so it's not likely that there will be diverse populations; it won't be usual or normal. Second, most fantasies are imagined in some geographically-limited, temperate zone climate that is a close-clone of medieval Europe, and in that environment, with that technological level involving limited trade and travel, again, diverse populations (at least of the skin-color type) aren't at all likely. It's not that you can't have such things without stretching credulity (which is a weird concept to appeal to in a fantasy context), it's just that there aren't any clear reasons why 'different races' make sense. The "Summer Isles" in George Martin's Song of Ice and Fire series do provide a rationale, but even in that case, there aren't people of different races all over Westeros and Essos. In fantasies that have a clear line of descent from Tolkien's stories, diverse races don't make sense at all (even supposing isolated developments in the 'east' of Middle Earth) because the time frames involved are only thousands of years, not millions. Again, it's not that such things cannot be introduced, but the matter is, as i said, complicated.
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ToeNo5165 OP t1_jdhg4xp wrote
This is only my opinion 😁 if you have a different view share it I am open for discussions
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CoffeeAndCandle t1_jdhlmjo wrote
This is such low-tier bait that you should frankly be ashamed of it.