[OC] Chances to attend a "Grande Ecole (Top university) in France. If you want to attend "ENA", the best university in France, you have 330x chances if your father graduated from there.
Submitted by pacmanpill t3_yat1hj in dataisbeautiful
The ENA is certainly not "the best" university, it is useful if you want to work in the government but that usually doesn't pay as well as comparable private sector jobs. If you want to make money X or HEC are way better.
Also the ENA doesn't exist anymore, it was closed down by the government in 2021.
It was renamed. It still exist and work the same way. Now the name is INSP and it will reproduce the same thing, as ENA did.
Yeah, the govt did say that it will be more open now to people from all walks of life, but I'm not sure how true that is. Maybe it's just a quick rebranding and nothing more.
It's still astounding than in our country that strives for more equality (it's in our words, after all), we have those incredibly high level schools, the cradle of our elite (supposedly), being such powerful instruments of social reproduction.
Yeah, I guess that's the case in pretty much every country. You're way more likely to receive a good education from your parents if they're well-educated too.
At least we don't have institutionalized nepotism and corruption like they do in the US ( like Dean's list, "legacy" admissions, stuff like that). For instance it's well known that Jared Kushner, Trump's son in law, got into Harvard because his rich father donated a few million $ to them. And that's totally legal, which is insane. Colleges like X or HEC in France have tough entrance exams, and you can't buy your way in. Some people say entrance exams are biased but that's still the most fair way to choose people imo.
Dean’s list in US in my experience (attended multiple public and private Unis in US) is not nepotism, just a list of the students with the best grades? Unlike legacy
What do you believe is nepotistic or corrupt about the “Dean’s List”?
I think the ENA is a blessing for France. Look at other governments and see how nepotism places people completely unprepared in government jobs solely because they're part of the ruling party. The ENA leads to technocracy, and elitism, but I believe it's much better than unprepared people.
I mean, the data presented here suggests that ENA is basically nepotism with extra steps.
Although the extra steps are possibly of importance. ENA entrance exam is reputed to be extremely hard regardless of cooptation, at least being born from a diplomat is not enough.
Absolutely, I don't think there was anything wrong with it. I guess it was shut down because it was politically toxic.
Well I suppose, because of my political alignment and tendency to criticize things within their context, as good as the ENA has been for France in the ways you describe, it also contributes to reinforcing social reproduction in France.
Well, that just painfully annoying to read. Excellence and equity are not mutually exclusive.
This. ENA is not a university, and should be considered separately from the other Grandes Ecoles
> The ENA is certainly not "the best" university
It certainly is. HEC is very hard to get, X very very hard, l'ENA was another step above. Why tf would money be a criteria??
If you think people do not consider their expected earnings post-graduation as one of the most important factors when they choose the degree they want to pursue, you are seriously misguided. The vast majority of people who want to get an education do so in the hope of landing a high-paying job. The only people that don't care about money are those who have very wealthy families that provide for them.
Hey, X17 here.
ENA is definitely the hardest school to get into, by a SIGNIFICANT margin. HEC and business school in general are significantly easier. If you're an excellent student you'll be paid more from ENA than anything too.
These comparisons don't even make sense. There are several types of Grandes Ecoles, the two most important of which are business and science schools. To find the most difficult Grande Ecole to get into in France, one must first look for the most difficult in science and business separately. In the sciences, it is without a doubt the ENS Ulm which is a school mainly known for mathematics. The math entrance test at Ulm is so difficult that many future Fields medalists end up doing very poorly. On the other hand, HEC is known to be the best and most difficult business school at BAC+3 (people around 20 years old). ENA is a school where most students come from HEC (BAC+5) but you can pass the test with a BAC+3. However, it's not because the test is hard that students go to HEC before taking the test, it's just because you are against other students, so they take 2 more years to get more knowledge and have more chances to be ranked higher. But the test itself is not really difficult, it's actually pretty simple. You have a panel of documents and you have to answer political questions using your knowledge and the documents. So which is better ENA or HEC? Well for me it's HEC, I'm also in a Grande Ecole and I talk to a lot of students from other schools and we all think that our "intelligence peak" was when we took the test to enter the BAC+3 schools. Finally, which is the best school between ENS Ulm and HEC? In my opinion, it is ENS Ulm because when some of the most famous future mathematicians give a blank copy because the test was too hard, it is because the test is too hard and not something else. To underline what I said, the selection rate is between 5% and 10% which means that out of 1000 students who are the best mathematicians of their generation only 50-75 of them can be admitted.
> business and science schools. To find the most difficult Grande Ecole to get into in France, one must first look for the most difficult in science and business separately. In the sciences, it is without a doubt the ENS Ulm which is a school mainly known for mathematics. The math entrance test at Ulm is so difficult that many future Fields medalists end up doing very poorly. On the other hand, HEC is known to be the best and most difficult business school at BAC+3 (people around 20 years old). ENA is a school where most students come from HEC (BAC+5) but you can pass the test with a BAC+3. However, it's not because the test is hard that students go to HEC before taking the test, it's just because you are against other students, so they take 2 more years to get more knowledge and have more chances to be ranked higher. But the test itself is not really difficult, it's actually pretty simple. You have a panel of documents and you have to answer political questions using your knowledge and the documents. So which is better ENA or HEC? Well for me it's HEC, I'm also in a Grande Ecole and I talk to a lot of students from other schools and we all think that our "intelligence peak" was when we took the test to enter the BAC+3 schools. Finally, which is the best school between ENS Ulm and HEC? In my opinion, it is ENS Ulm because when some of the most famous future mathematicians give a blank copy because the test was too hard, it is because the test is too hard and not something else. To underline what I said, the selection rate is between 5% an
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Ulm and X are probably about as different as X and HEC in the people that are interested in going. You go to ULM for research, you go to X to make money, you go to HEC when you're incapable of getting to either and aren't interested in literature.
Either way, ENA's entrance exam is much harder than any other french school, it's simply a fact, percentage or not, the exam is taken by people with the same mindset then as they had during the classe prépa. You're getting tested againts the best of the best schools.
Wow, a random Redditor just decided I do not exist.
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