I analyzed 11000 products of a Dutch supermarket to find the cheapest sources of protein [OC]LanchestersLaw t1_j3yi7x6 wrote
Top 10 foods SWOLE VEGANS dont want you to know about!!!
Traciatim t1_j41b37e wrote
If by swole you mean gargantuanly fat, then sure.
sup2_0 t1_j4058lk wrote
Plant proteins don’t have complete amino acid profiles, so it is important to research which vegan protein source contains what animo acids and combine sources accordingly.
GladstoneBrookes t1_j40ibsv wrote
Some plant proteins do have a complete amino acid profile (soy, quinoa, buckwheat, hemp seeds, etc.), but for the ones that don't it's not that complicated getting sufficient quantities of all amino acids from plant foods. All plant foods contain all essential amino acids, but often in a lower proportion than one's dietary requirements (hence the 'incomplete' classification) - grains tend to have lysine as a limiting amino acid, while for beans it's methionine, so a grain + legume combination will get you a good amino acid profile.
Also copying a previous comment on bioavailability and quality of plant proteins:
> Plant protein sources do typically have lower PDCAAS and DIAAS scores, which is where the "low bioavailability" idea comes from, but this difference is almost entirely due to limiting amino acids rather than them not being digestible or absorbed. (Note that limiting amino acids does not mean the essential amino acid is not present, all plant foods contain all amino acids, it just means that the amino acid is present in a lower proportion than a person's dietary requirements.) If you're eating a variety of plant protein sources (literally just more than one really; something like rice and beans has a perfect or near-perfect PDCAAS score, for example) then this really shouldn't be an issue for you.
> In addition, when you look at the data on the outcome we're interested in (muscle mass gain) rather than getting bogged down in amino acid composition, postprandial muscle protein synthesis, measures of fecal/ileal digestibility, etc. plant proteins appear to be non-inferior to animal protein sources. This randomised controlled trial compared omnivores supplementing with whey protein to vegans supplementing with soy protein powder and found that when they were matched for protein (1.6 g/kg/day) and underwent resistance training, there was no difference in the improvements of muscle mass or strength.
> This review is really interesting and summarises the plant protein quality issue, and also covers the environmental aspects of different protein sources. Also this review covering the broader health and environmental issues of animal vs. plant proteins.
sup2_0 t1_j40o74u wrote
You are correct about the existence of complete plant proteins. There are studies that show an advantage in lean muscle mass gains for groups that consume animal based proteins https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7926405/#!po=29.1667
I definitely believe it is possible to gain significant lean mass on a plant based diet, it just requires more effort than an omnivorous diet in my opinion. I would be open to seeing studies that challenge the one I have sourced but I am paywalled from the one you have linked.
My original comment was just a warning to combine your plant protein sources wisely to achieve the best results. I did not mean for that to get lost in translation.
DishingOutTruth t1_j41t265 wrote
>lean muscle mass gains for groups that consume animal based proteins
The difference in the study you linked is very small, to the extent that it is only really relevant if you're a professional bodybuilder. The average gym goer won't see much of a difference. If they're really worried about it, they could supplement their diet with protein powder (though it won't be necessary).
Its much more important that you have an optimal training regimen than worrying about where your protein comes from.
FailOsprey t1_j4378bu wrote
This is a well-put synopsis. Whenever I'm carousing these sort of posts, I'm blown away by the emotional connection people form with their diet. It's by no means a new phenomenon; most ancient cultures literally worshipped what they ate.
Although meat is delicious, it is incredibly inefficient. If we put more effort into developing and promoting vegetarian sources of protein, all the resources waisted on livestock could be put to better use.
dalens t1_j40aywg wrote
Source? Plant protein are less efficient as energy source but they are complete regarding necessary amino acids. Maybe you mean some modified amino acids which are not including in the indications for a healthy diet.
sup2_0 t1_j40h45e wrote
I was specifically speaking in the context of muscle protein synthesis, not the bare minimum required to be healthy. The daily required amount is not enough to become “swole”, this can be seen in the daily value recommendation of 50g, anyone who lifts can tell you that is not enough. I am not claiming it to be impossible to be swole and vegan but you need to combine protein sources to get all amino acids required for muscle protein synthesis. There is a reason many popular vegan protein powders are a combination of sources (pea and rice normally). https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6723444/
corrado33 t1_j3zd8dp wrote
They won't be swole if they're eating this stuff for protein.
Sure, you get protein, and sure, it's cheap, but you also get a ton of CALORIES.
That's the nice thing about "meat" as a protein source. For the amount of protein you get, you get relatively few calories.
Certainly a lot less than if you ate straight yellow split peas for the same amount of protein.
marriedacarrot t1_j3zu3w9 wrote
This graph is about cheap protein, not dense protein. Look up wheat gluten (22 g protein per 100 calories) or even soy curls (lower at 10 g per 100 calories, but still 40% from protein). The vegan hot dogs in my fridge have more protein per calorie than chicken.
[deleted] t1_j41d7wu wrote
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corrado33 t1_j47q64w wrote
Wheat gluten is not edible by itself. I don't see anyone out there chugging powdered wheat gluten.
So go ahead and make it into something even remotely edible, then we'll talk about protein to calories split.
marriedacarrot t1_j47x5y3 wrote
At least among the omnivores in my family, my seitan "carne" asada is a massive hit.
It's wheat gluten powder hydrated with brown veggie & mushroom broth, with cumin, chili powder, and a dash of soy sauce. Baked. Then diced and browned in corn oil with minced onion, a little more soy sauce, and a hint of molasses. Serve with freshly made corn tortillas and pico de gallo or tomatillo-aguacate salsa.
Morczubel t1_j404nhh wrote
Protein quality and processing matters. Gluten is still not considered perfectly safe if aswell you read the literature.
marriedacarrot t1_j408270 wrote
Please share the medical journal sources that explain why it's not perfectly safe. I've been eating lots of seitan over the last 25 years and, while I feel great, I may be racing to an early grave and not realize it! My health depends on your insights!
Also eager to learn why, contrary to every reputable nutritionist's input, I can't actually get high quality and complete protein through a diverse diet containing beans, legumes, grains, and vegetables. Must be a wild conspiracy in the medical community.
goodluckonyourexams t1_j4144x7 wrote
lots of gluten can lead to leaky gut
marriedacarrot t1_j41nq2h wrote
It can if that's a thing your body does! If that's how your body reacts to gluten you shouldn't eat too much. But if your body doesn't have that reaction, there's no problem. You might as well tell everyone to avoid strawberries because some people are allergic to strawberries.
[deleted] t1_j40dzlm wrote
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GladstoneBrookes t1_j40imsy wrote
What are your thoughts on trials like this one that find when you look at the protein-related outcome we presumably care most about, muscle growth and strength, there are no significant differences between vegans and omnivores undergoing resistance training when matched for protein?
AlvinoNo t1_j40lcj2 wrote
I don’t think working out twice a week for 12 weeks is enough to note any real difference in your one rep max leg press. I’d be interested to see a longer form study with a workout regime designed for muscle growth.
Rygerts t1_j411uy1 wrote
My point is that the leucine content generally is lower in plants and that's a limiting factor. Vegetables have a less ideal amino acid profile. As long as you get enough leucine you're good when it comes to muscle building.
Regarding the study you linked: if you look closer at the nutrient composition the protein intake and amino acid intake is roughly equal between the groups but the vegan group has a higher carb intake, and as we age we all become more or less carb intolerant and that's one of many drawbacks of a pure vegan diet. Other drawbacks are lack of micro nutrients that need to be taken through supplements unless extreme care is taken, and for practical reasons it's not easy to achieve compared with an omnivore diet.
Morczubel t1_j40g1v3 wrote
I dont like your tone, lady. I am open to rational discussion, but Your condescending tone is a warning that I will be wasting my time.
As far as I am concerned, You can get enough complete protein to live on a vegan diet. But I was referring to the vegan sausage specifically. To explain simply: the Amino acid profile is not as balanced as with meat, as atleast one amino acid (depending on plant it is derived from) is lacking compared to the rest. But still, I really wanna see the macros on your sausage; 'more protein per energy than chicken' seems really good, considering chicken breast is around a 80 protein/20 fat/0 carbs split already! But even in this case, from a nutrition standpoint, I'd stick to chicken breast, due to the amount of processing the sausage probably went through.
I dont trust nutritionists, especially not the publically outspoken ones. Nutritional science has a long history of public misinformation to the point of deception, lobbying and conflict of interest. I try to only rely on the information put out there by primary papers, whose methodology I find sound after reading them (so overwhelmingly no epidemiological studies to begin with) and find to have no conflict of interest in terms of funding especially (which might be utopian).
marriedacarrot t1_j41qijj wrote
Feeding a chicken a diet of processed corn product and antibiotics: Not processed, totally natural. Mushing a bunch of plants together in a tube shape: Disgustingly processed, inherently unhealthy.
Plant sausage is a bit salty, so it's a good thing no vegan sits around just eating fake sausage.
Other than soy, no one plant protein has all 9 amino acids that the body needs from food. That's why the first rule of a vegan diet is "get protein from multiple sources."
Please share these primary sources that demonstrate the points you're trying to make about a plant-based diet being unhealthy.
Morczubel t1_j41wva4 wrote
>Feeding a chicken a diet of processed corn product and antibiotics: Not processed, totally natural. Mushing a bunch of plants together in a tube shape: Disgustingly processed, inherently unhealthy.
Thats why you buy organic chicken. Double points if you get your protein from all kinds of sources, not just animals. If your sausage actually only contains a few things without added sugar or seed oils or additives, that would be great. The backside won’t tell you about how it is processing other than that though. If it really has better macros than chicken ontop of that, then I would be throroughly amazed.
​
>Plant sausage is a bit salty, so it's a good thing no vegan sits around just eating fake sausage. Other than soy, no one plant protein has all 9 amino acids that the body needs from food.
Afaik quinoa is more complete than soy, which is limited in sulphur containing amino acids. Though not exactly relevant if combined with other sources.
​
>That's why the first rule of a vegan diet is "get protein from multiple sources."
I know; I somewhat stated this myself in my last comment. Yet it is still far easier to get the things You need from an omnivore diet.
​
>Please share these primary sources that demonstrate the points you're trying to make about a plant-based diet being unhealthy.
I have never claimed this. Let me reiterate yet another time: I was solely referring to my opinion that highly processed vegan replacement products are not the ideal food (see above). To add: usually the burden of proof lies with the one challenging the status quo. The status quo for nutrition science is that we know absolutely nothing other than a few select things. Even if I wanted to, I cannot fully disprove a plant-based diet being healthy as much as you cannot prove it is healthy as of right now. Same goes for any other diet. Nutrition science is inherently extremely complex as variables are plenty and longterm study/protocol adherence is bad. We just are not there yet and claiming anything else is just an ideology at this point.
marriedacarrot t1_j42gxum wrote
The point isn't to compare one specific product to one specific product; you compare a holistic diet with a holistic diet. If I got 50%+ of my protein from seitan sausage, cautioning against processed foods might be relevant, but nobody actually eats that way. (Also, what harm does physically processing foods in machines actually do? Adding salt in the factory and running it through an extruder is no worse than adding salt at home.)
What percent of the chicken an omnivore eats is organic? Do people who say "I only eat organic chicken and beef from my uncle's special farm" never eat at restaurants or friends' houses? Never buy TV dinners? Omnivores seem to enjoy comparing the best theoretical meat-based diet with the worst theoretical plant-based diet, regardless of how people actually eat.
You kicked off this thread with "Gluten is still not considered perfectly safe if as well you read the literature," and are now not providing links to the literature that you told me to read. I'm asking for evidence that gluten is "not safe."
Brewe t1_j40uy0r wrote
>Gluten is still not considered perfectly safe if aswell you read the literature.
trololololo?
If you don't consider gluten perfectly safe, you'd also have to not consider water perfectly safe.
Morczubel t1_j40xyfl wrote
It is literally an ongoing scientific debate and I recommend actually reading the literature before stating 'facts' in such a tone.
EasternAggie t1_j3zuvzp wrote
It’s entirely possible to be swole, plant based, and whole food based
Source: frequent gym goer who really likes his legumes
CaptainAddi t1_j41d9s5 wrote
Look how you cant be swole with a vegan diet:
corrado33 t1_j47pyr9 wrote
For every ex strongman or muscleman you list with a vegan diet I can list 2 dozen more with an omnivore diet.
CaptainAddi t1_j47wwnk wrote
So you are telling me there are generally more meat eaters then vegans? Crazy
SoulOfGuyFieri t1_j41wqxy wrote
Calorie surplus is necessary for muscle gain. If you're starving your body of calories, you body will utilize other sources of energy within your body when exercising (i.e. fat and muscle)
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