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spinnybingle OP t1_itfj2az wrote

Reply to comment by Tokishi7 in Joseon, the predecessor of modern Korea(s) - Part 3: Japan and Qing Invasions (early 17th century) by spinnybingle

Well

  1. I agree that Joseon history can be read as a sort of downward spiral - it gets worse in the 19th century
  2. It was not necessarily as dark in the three kingdoms, Unified Silla and Goryeo period. I think it was the Mongol invasion in the 13th century that crucially influenced the fate of Korea and neighboring Japan. Goryeo (Korea) fiercely fought Mongols, relocating the whole population of the capital to an island, but got eventually devastated. Japan stayed intact. I often think that this is comparable to the fate of Persia and some part of the Islamic world in the Mongol invasion.
  3. After 100 years of Mongol dominance, Korean aristocrats became completely conservative and fundamentalist (in Confucianism). A similar trend also happened in Ming China but it was more extreme in Korea. It was not that the first king of Joseon sealed the deal on Korea's future, it was the collective of the aristocrats who completely turned fundamentalist Confucianist. Many Joseon kings were personally stifled, and resisted the orthodoxy, especially in the early period. But the orthodoxy would become even more dominant
  • A similar trend of ultra-conservative orthodoxy also happened in Vietnam though, so I don't think it's just the case of Korea. Spain is another example that "sealed the deal" on their country's future when it was caught in the religious craze and kicked out all the Protestants and Jews
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DiploJ t1_iti93gv wrote

Confucianism as practiced in Joseon was a tool of political control and financial enrichment of the nobility (yangban). As with most cultures, religion, for good or bad, has always been used for control and power consolidation.

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Tokishi7 t1_itfn0c4 wrote

I’m mostly just talking about how korean history is just how can we screw over the nation to put our family into power only for another family to do the same a few years later. Despite Joseph’s length, I would go to say that pre Joseon was much more successful. Koreans really don’t like it when you point out one of the reasons that japan walked in so easily in the late 1800s as well.

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Algaean t1_itfnowo wrote

If it makes you feel better, Hungarian history is one long "how can i cut off my nose to spite your face" episode.

Seriously, the national sport of national government is how to shoot the nation in the foot.

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Tokishi7 t1_itfnzv1 wrote

It’s just disappointing in Korea’s case and rather ironic with the nationalism here. Living here feels like we haven’t come much further since

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DiploJ t1_iti9kft wrote

Ancient Korea had so much potential, but internal political jousts and extreme lusts for power was their bane, especially in the Joseon era. Instability was why they couldn't be any greater.

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daemonshrike t1_itjome1 wrote

What kind of potential do you mean?

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DiploJ t1_itjpew1 wrote

They had what it takes to become a military and political powerhouse but didn't apply themselves. They were vassals of others for so long.

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Tokishi7 t1_itiuxf4 wrote

Can’t say we’ve come much further living here…It’s rather cut throat these days as well unfortunately

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dually t1_itj8uqr wrote

Nationalism is the enlightened idea that nation-states are preferable to feudal heirarchies and dynastic empires.

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