Comments
Fofolito t1_itoisjy wrote
Cool.
From the article, after Vasa sank three ships were ordered from the same shipwright to similar designs. They were the Crown, Sceptre, and this one, Applet (Apple). Two of these ships served in war and this one was sunk on purpose, upon decommissioning, likely as a submerged spike-strip to foul unawares attackers.
lurkarrunt t1_itopkyn wrote
As a Swedish speaker I found it a bit weird that Guardian wrote Applet and not the correct Äpplet (or The Apple if they wanted to translate)
unknown_ordinary t1_itoquj2 wrote
Everyone else is excited about our ancestors enjoying gadgets from our favorite company
Electric_Evil t1_itor1n9 wrote
So can we raise this one and put it on display next to the Vasa?
MeatballDom OP t1_itorinu wrote
Surprised to not pick that up myself. Was expecting æblet but then told myself æ wouldn't be used in Swedish and never continued the thought to what should be used. But I guess I assumed the authors would have already done that work.
Edit: Would the umlaut have been used in the 17th century? Vowel shift perhaps?
automatvapen t1_itos5wp wrote
They actually made four in total with wasa as the first ship. Let's call it a failed "design concept"
Formendacil t1_itov8kg wrote
No, Ä has been used for longer than that
IMALEFTY45 t1_itovko8 wrote
They would need to build a bigger museum
banestyrelsen t1_itowzac wrote
I believe all four ships were ordered simultaneously but they started building Vasa first. Already during construction they thought it would be unstable so they made the other three ships wider.
ElMachoGrande t1_itoy6xc wrote
Swedish guy here: It was named Äpplet, not Applet. Ä and A are two completely different letters. Applet is a programming concept, Äpplet means "The apple".
avdpos t1_itoytnj wrote
I'm a swede, and I did not know it either
beach_boy91 t1_itp199r wrote
In a swedish article i read yesterday, it's said that it lies in a military area, which are forbidden to dive in. They gotta have special authority to dive there and they said that maybe they'll take a look at it towards spring to 3d scan the entire thing but they didn't think they would raise the ship and just let it be. It has survived there since 1659 and is still mostly intact. It will be able to lie at the bottom for a lot longer without the need of raising it and requier constant maintaining
DdPillar t1_itp1d54 wrote
Literally, yes, although together with its sister ships (the sceptre and the crown), it is obviously a reference to riksäpplet, Globus Cruciger a Christian symbol of authority. Together they make up the Regalia of Sweden.
WikiMobileLinkBot t1_itp1ee3 wrote
Desktop version of /u/DdPillar's link: <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Globus_cruciger>
^([)^(opt out)^(]) ^(Beep Boop. Downvote to delete)
ElMachoGrande t1_itp3vsj wrote
Yes, of course. My point was more about A vs Ä.
martinborgen t1_itp5p9o wrote
So, yes, it would have been 'Äpplet'
buster_de_beer t1_itp6kdn wrote
Nah, applet definitely is a sunken ship. Makes perfect sense.
OMGlookatthatrooster t1_itp6wx5 wrote
Would be cool if they made a museum around it, instead of the other way round.
AnaphoricReference t1_itp6zlb wrote
When you scuttle a ship in the entrance of a harbour defensively, as a blockship, this is usually done to force those that enter the harbour to sail in closer to the cannons of a fortress.
Select-Owl-8322 t1_itp88rs wrote
I actually think it's a little bit disrespectful to the Swedish language to not use the correct spelling, "Äpplet". I know that most non-Swedes wouldn't be able to pronounce it correctly, but they can at least spell it correctly in a headline!
DeRuyter67 t1_itp9o3h wrote
Why did it sink?
Select-Owl-8322 t1_itpauo9 wrote
>Edit: Would the umlaut have been used in the 17th century? Vowel shift perhaps?
"Ä" is actually not an "A" with an umlaut, it's its own separate letter in our alphabet. As is "Å" and "Ö".
And I believe they were used back in the 17th century, but I'm not a linguist so I'm not sure.
[deleted] t1_itpbmpw wrote
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[deleted] t1_itpbos2 wrote
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[deleted] t1_itpcb2n wrote
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fredagsfisk t1_itpf7n9 wrote
It was sunk on purpose to block a passage for enemy ships, 29 years after it first set sail. It was already damaged and worn at the time, to the point where it was deemed too expensive for repairs to be worth it.
ulyssesfiuza t1_itphlk0 wrote
At the time it was a rotten Applet, or Äpplet. Various redditors point to the difference, none show the difference in spell.
TheNaug t1_itpi9al wrote
The -et suffix is the definitive form, like adding "the" to a word.
Äpplet = The Apple
rbajter t1_itpjwd2 wrote
They already have a bigger boat. (dun dun)
metaglot t1_itpjylv wrote
Æblet is danish for 'the apple'.
rbajter t1_itpkb5r wrote
I heard that these old wooden ships usually serverd around 12 years before being replaced.
[deleted] t1_itpl8bb wrote
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fredagsfisk t1_itpn3dz wrote
Hmm, sounds very low, so I don't think that's correct. I know that the cannons apparently had a much longer service life than the ships themselves tho, and that they'd be salvaged and reused when one sank.
For Swedish "regalskepp" (the largest ships of the navy during the 1600s):
Äpplet - 3 years, sold
Vasa - 0 years, sank instantly
Äpplet - 29 years, sunk on purpose (the one in the article)
Kronan - 43 years, sunk on purpose
Göta Ark - 16 years, scrapped
Scepter - 39 years, sunk on purpose
Draken - 21 years, stranded during battle
Viktoria - 28 years, sunk on purpose
Saturnus - 45 years, though was rebuilt and renamed Bohus after 25 years
Riksäpplet - 15 years, sank during storm
Svärdet - 13 years, sank in battle
Wrangel - 49 years, though was rebuilt after 25 years
Nyckeln - 14 years, sank by own crew during battle to avoid capture
Mars - 12 years, captured by Denmark
Jupiter - 45 years, sank (not sure why)
Venus - 39 years, though was rebuilt and renamed Finland after 18 years
Kronan (aka Stora Kronan) - 4 years, exploded and sank during battle
Solen - 25 years, sunk on purpose
Mercurius - 48 years, though was captured by the Dutch 5 years after it was launched
Please note that these dates are the time that passed from launch to sinking or decommissioning, and that not all of them had a service life that long.
fiendishrabbit t1_itpnjg3 wrote
Depends on the era, building material and size.
A well-built 74-gun ship-of-the-line built out of well-dried oak were on average in service for maybe 30-50 years. British second rates (90-gun ships) tended to be in service for 60-80 years unless they were wrecked.
On the opposite end we have ships like the Endymion class frigates, which served for about a decade. But these ships were built out of fir instead of oak (because of a shortage of oak and the need to complete them quickly)
Swedish ships tended to live a hard life though, and a very large amount of them were sunk or captured. The longest serving ship was Äran (Glory), with it's 90 years in Swedish service before sinking (due to fire).
zoinkability t1_itpo2y5 wrote
Great point, the proper character is not hard to use
[deleted] t1_itpqcd2 wrote
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EzKafka t1_itpqj4r wrote
We had such a long coast but yet we had a horrible trackrecord on the sea. The Danes beat us to it many times.
War_Hymn t1_itpugjs wrote
If I recall, the designer (a Dutch master shipwright) was bedridden from illness during the Vasa's construction and his nephew or assistant took over the project. The ship ended more top heavy than it should had been, contributing to it's instability.
I'm sure the later sister ships were built with improvements and changes, keep in mind the Vasa was at the cutting edge of ship design at the time - they were trying build not only large, but fast.
rbajter t1_itpukui wrote
Yeah, the source is Krigshistoriepodden episode 123 so I’m not surprised if it was generalised for effect.
rbajter t1_itpup4b wrote
Source is Krigshistoriepodden episode 123 so it might have been abused for effect.
fiendishrabbit t1_itpurev wrote
The swedish navy has always played second fiddle to the swedish army.
Also, while the "örlogsflottan" (open water navy) frequently performed poorly the archipelago fleet (consisting of galleys, gunsloops and the smaller archipelago frigates) mostly performed quite well (like Frisches Haff, Nöteborg and the second battle of Svensksund).
WoodAlcoholIsGreat t1_itpwocp wrote
I am sorry to hear of your suffering..
Cat5lover t1_itpx6vg wrote
I believe it was also this. In spirit of collaboration, the Dutch did one side and the Swedes did the other. The unfortunate part was that the Dutch inch and the Swedish inch are slightly different which led to one side being heavier than the other causing it to lean too far to one side and take on water some few hundred meters from shore.
EzKafka t1_itq5eqh wrote
Yeah, thats a big point to be honest. Sweden was mainly an inland sea. Danes had much more oceanic waters to handle. Also, the inclusion of British and Dutch navies screwing us both over to keep the balance was also a big help.
grambell789 t1_itq9mh5 wrote
I'm curious how ship building tech changed from about 1400 to 1600. I have read that steel for tools improved much during that period especially big rip saws that could cut the hull planks so they can be edge joined (carvel).
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tiramichu t1_itqhnp3 wrote
Because there is surviving historical record.
The 1600s were not as long ago as you think. People paid taxes. There were financial ledgers, and letters written, and paintings of significant things. And when the navy ordered an expensive warship there was certainly a contract with the shipyard.
It might seem like forever ago, but in the grand scheme it's pretty modern history.
And as well as records of when it was built, also records of how it was lost.
[deleted] t1_itqqra2 wrote
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irenepanik t1_itqv1sh wrote
Danskjävel is swedish for 'danish citizen'.
Snooderblade t1_itqw1nw wrote
A and Ä are different letters that just happens to look similar but they sound nothing alike. Using an A instead of the correct letter is like using a Q instead of an O.
panckage t1_itqxkoe wrote
That's right. The unusual thing about the Vasa is you could walk the whole length of the gun deck upright. Previous designs you would need to bend over to walk past the crossbeams. It is this extra height that is blamed for the ship rolling over and consequently sinking
panckage t1_itqxzq3 wrote
Not surprised by the performance though!
metaglot t1_itr0c60 wrote
A 'svensker' is a thoroughly incompetent person in Danish.
ArtlieST t1_itr4r2v wrote
They do use Äpplet in the article, just not in the headline! :)
lurkarrunt t1_itr5418 wrote
I thought I was confused, but they changed it! Look at the bottom: "This article was amended on 25 October 2022. An earlier version referred to the ship as Applet, when it is Äpplet" Should I assume someone at The Guardian read my comment?
ArtlieST t1_itr5u67 wrote
Ooh look at that! Completely missed that little piece hehe. Maybe they did?
clampy t1_itr7amb wrote
It's a really neat museum, but I wish they'd let you go on/in the ship. I get why they don't, but it would have been a lot cooler if they did.
motoxjake t1_itr9vtw wrote
Yes, you can get pretty close to it but I would have liked to venture into the ship. I totally understand why thats a bad idea and it was still a fantastic experience, regardless. Stockholm is such a beautiful city.
toyyya t1_itrc8mj wrote
Firstly it's worth noting that Swedish doesn't have umlauts like that and it's a separate letter completely. But disregarding the semantics we have officially used Ä and Ö instead of Æ and Ø since at the very least 1541.
Which is when Gustav Vasa's Bible was written that set new standards for the Swedish language, and the change to Ä and Ö was partly motivated by seeking a stronger separate identity from the Kalmar union (which was a Union between Norway Sweden and Denmark that we had just fought ourselves free from due to the Danes effectively controlling it).
culingerai t1_itrij7t wrote
Source?
April_Fabb t1_itrmip4 wrote
>1628
Cheers. Annoyed me as well.
wegtys t1_itrpqpm wrote
Chemical analysis of the wood shows it was from the same location as the wood from the Vasa and the year rings show it was cut the same year.
intangible-tangerine t1_itrvqsw wrote
There is a post-rock band from Glasgow called Vasa
NavyThrone t1_itrybbr wrote
Vote. You need to vote and ask anyone you know to go vote.
tepkel t1_its8lh3 wrote
>In the summer of 1628, the captain responsible for supervising construction of the ship, Söfring Hansson, arranged for the ship's stability to be demonstrated for Vice Admiral Fleming, who had recently arrived in Stockholm from Prussia.
"Man, this ship seems really unstable. Guess we better test it to see"
>Thirty men ran back and forth across the upper deck to start the ship rolling, but the admiral stopped the test after they had made only three trips, as he feared the ship would capsize.
"Man, this ship is really unstable. Guess we better not take it too far on it's maiden voyage"
>The ship sank after sailing roughly 1,300 m into her maiden voyage on 10 August 1628.
Cat5lover t1_itsb7g2 wrote
I went to the museum itself a few years ago, but I found this which discusses the instability of the ship. https://faculty.up.edu/lulay/failure/vasacasestudy.pdf
Oana__Oana t1_itsb9e8 wrote
It’a a really cool museum about this in Stockholm, and you can find out a lot of interesting facts about it there! Also the ship very well preserved
flowering_sun_star t1_itsdadg wrote
Is this just a matter of the way you are taught the alphabet in school? Because it blatantly is the character 'A' with a diacritic that indicates it is pronounced differently.
[deleted] t1_itskx8t wrote
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Akaviren t1_itsox1b wrote
Not sure if I understand your question, but Å, Ä and Ö is considered a part of the alphabet in Sweden. Thus adding three more letters to what English speakers consider their alphabet.
gregorydgraham t1_itssn47 wrote
A “swede” is a turnip in New Zealand
gregorydgraham t1_itssusq wrote
Tsk! It’s easy to pronounce, just simultaneously pronounce an “a” and a horizontal semi-colon.
culingerai t1_itswuu0 wrote
Good information, but it doesnt address the claim on the inches. Im only asking as this sounds like some sort of urban legend rather than a factual reason for its failure.
The_Gutgrinder t1_itsy7qz wrote
Ever seen a Swedish keyboard? They are separate letters, what's so hard to understand about that?
[deleted] t1_itsyox2 wrote
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Select-Owl-8322 t1_ittgwih wrote
I man, the visual representation is an A with dots, yes. But it is it own letter. The english alphabet has 26 letters, the swedish alphabet has 29. On a swedish keyboard, Å Ä and Ö have their own keys. The pronunciation is entierly different.
Snooderblade t1_ittuyhc wrote
”Q blatantly is the character 'O' with a diacratic that indicates it is pronounced differently”
Different languages have different letters to accomodate that language, there is no objectively correct ”alphabet” and the english version of the latin alphabet isn’t the default. How is this so hard for english speakers to understand?
Chickengilly t1_ittw9xb wrote
Not legend. I heard it before.
:-)
culingerai t1_ittwezh wrote
Many urban legends are repeated ;)
flowering_sun_star t1_itu0zmd wrote
Q is a consonant, while O is a vowel that can have many different pronunciations. They perform very different roles.
It's hard for an English speaker to understand where you're coming from because in English a vowel can have many different pronunciations, and we are comfortable with that. We also understand that other languages use diacritics to provide hints on pronunciation.
It seems really weird to us to insist that a character, and that character with diacritics, are fundamentally different things. Especially when the base character in an English text could reasonably be used to represent both those sounds. And remember that this is all in the context of an English language text!
I'm perhaps just surprised at how up-tight all the swedes are over a simple choice in transliteration. Maybe it is you who need the reminder that not all languages share an alphabet?
Snooderblade t1_itu429o wrote
But it’s not an A with diacritics! A and Ä are objectively different letters, using an A (which in english sounds nothing like Ä no matter how you pronounce it) is misleading. You can’t just switch letters based on looks without regard for the sounds they represent. Case in point the closest letter to Ä is E, not A, the official way to transliterate Ä in english is Ae and if you look at the actual article they use Ä aswell.
Cat5lover t1_ituudk0 wrote
That’s a fair assessment. I unfortunately couldn’t find a reference during my brief search, but that was what they said when we went to the museum.
zoinkability t1_itoikk4 wrote
Java developers are confused by this headline