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Commubot t1_iub53e0 wrote

Reply to comment by agreea in The Discovery that Lemons Cure Scurvy Caused the Formation of the Sicilian Mafia by agreea

>You can probably extrapolate this more generally, that organized criminal groups form around certain industries that the state cannot or will not protect

This exactly. Happens with any industry lacking proper regulation. People love to hate in "big government" and the central authorities without thinking about who/what would step in to take their place if they ceased to exist.

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PrettyText t1_iuccugv wrote

Yeah, good point. Power abhors a vacuum. Saying "let's have no government and magically everyone will somehow respect property rights" is simply naive.

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HelmutHoffman t1_iud5pje wrote

That doesn't mean a massive bloated corrupt bureaucratic system is good either. Most people who want to do away with bloat still want there to be government. Most people who want true anarchy are still too young to even be out of school yet.

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Armigine t1_iufrhey wrote

While still keeping in mind that, functionally, most people who go on about anything close to "big government" are actually arguing against safety nets and accountability

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jumpupugly t1_iuffo9e wrote

Anarchistic governance would be less about "do whatever you want", and more "dismantle hierarchies that let those on top do whatever they want."

So, if there's a bunch of folks who need protection and are banding together to do so, supplies, support and training should be directed towards them, and means by which the community can participate in and regulate the self defense force established.

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Manaoscola t1_iubsdg4 wrote

The problem is when the central goverment becomes the mafia itselve

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tonipaz t1_iubsvr0 wrote

No the problem is when central government decides prosecuting crime is more profitable than taxing the transactions that are considered “criminal”

I.e. the war on drugs (still going on)

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Manaoscola t1_iubtgvw wrote

not every part of the world has the same issues as USA, some places the central goverment becomes an actual mafia and feeds from industries, sometimes even destroying them.

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Theban_Prince t1_iudrgn0 wrote

Actually if you read the research OP posted there are parallels drawn between sudden windfall of wealth due to natural resources with the existence of both mafia and corrupted goverments.

The issue seems to be not about "goverment" by definition, but the fact that the influx of wealth in an already weakend state will spawn mafiesque organisations, either in the form of full blown criminal organistions and/or corrupted states

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TurboGuyUndercover t1_iubu2sy wrote

You’re avoiding the point made in the comment

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Lone-Sloth t1_iucwf4l wrote

Because its assuming that only US problems matter while other countries are having a lot bigger problems than the war on drugs, like "oh no you can't do drugs legally" meanwhile in China there's currently an ongoing genocide or other countries where the government is tyrannical

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the_barroom_hero t1_iudzsey wrote

If you think the problem with the war on drugs is "oh no you can't do drugs legally" you need to learn about the war on drugs

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Lone-Sloth t1_iuhc4mt wrote

I'm just trivalizing your issue since you do it so easily to more important ones, obviously there's more to it, but it's still nothing compared to other problems

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knochback t1_iue37hk wrote

It's less about "oh no I can't do drugs" and more about "oh no, these antiquated drug laws are used to unfairly target minorities and poor people, ruining lives while not fixing literally any problem"

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Jrook t1_iubvwh9 wrote

Such as?

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Manaoscola t1_iubwba6 wrote

Argentina, Saudi Arabia, China, and many african nations.

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Jrook t1_iubz1wf wrote

What industries did they destroy by Mafia tactics?

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gimnasium_mankind t1_iucrqhu wrote

After many years of reduced growth compared to the rest of the world, one could say that an industry « has been destroyed ». The reduced growth can come from excessive taxes and regulations, permits, licenses, any kind of mandatory contribution. Contributions that don’t « come back » propotionally in services or in infrastructure.

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OuterOne t1_iuc9akk wrote

Send to me like Saudi and Chinese industries are going pretty well.

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brownpaperboi t1_iudlctf wrote

I think the above comment is talking about the resource curse, where governments essentially focused on supporting and taxing one industry to the detriment of other industries. Countries with resource curse historically have high levels of corruption and frequently poor government services since the main goal of government is rent collection. Example include Nigeria, Mexico 20 years ago, Angola, Iraq and some other nations.

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Lindvaettr t1_iudbfda wrote

Or when they care more about public perception than competence. Most people opposed to big government aren't against the concept of regulation. They're against poor regulation that doesn't achieve what it's supposed to and overburdens the people it's supposed to protect.

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Redboy45672 t1_iudeele wrote

Another reason why anarcho capitalism is a dumb ideology

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tlst9999 t1_iue0w17 wrote

Not to the ones who will be the winners of anarcho capitalism.

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florinandrei t1_iue6tt7 wrote

Yeah, the mafia state is bad. Except for the mafiosi.

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Redboy45672 t1_iue1gac wrote

I suppose you could say that about any organization of society lol

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BoopsScroopin t1_iuevdae wrote

Everything will always suck for almost everyone almost all the time relative to the experience of the ruling class, it's just a question of to what degree. A system (or lack thereof) like anarcho capitalism just sets a very, very, very, exceptionally low floor for the everyman's quality of life.

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Redboy45672 t1_iuexcuo wrote

Correct. Dialectical materialism is a good theory imo

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Sun_Devilish t1_iue0icb wrote

False dilemma. The choice is not between big government regulation on one hand, and criminal empires on the other. There are many points in between these two extremes.

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Commubot t1_iue94px wrote

Not saying it's 100% criminal organizations that would take over, just that whatever takes the place of the government more than likely wouldn't have the average person's well-being in mind.

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Sun_Devilish t1_iuel37u wrote

The government doesn't have the average person's well being in mind either.

Government bureaucrats (and especially politicians) only care about their own power and position....just like everyone else.

Putting too much power into the hands of any single group, or single individual, is a certain recipe for tyranny. There is no perfect solution, and anyone who claims to have one is just angling to increase their own power and position.

The best we can hope for is a society in which various factions and groups are engaged in a Mexican standoff, and no one is too big for their britches.

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deryq t1_iug92sw wrote

Here’s a thought: stop voting for people that don’t have your interests in mind. Example: the Republican parties only aim is to eliminate taxes and destroy the federal and state governments. That’s not in your interests unless you’re a billionaire or a corporation. Soooo… maybe pay attention?

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Sun_Devilish t1_iuhb649 wrote

That's a caricature.

The Grifters On Parade want to maximize their own power and position...just like the Democrats.

To do this, they lie to voters and pretend to share the values and interests of those voters...just like the Democrats.

JUST LIKE EVERY OTHER POLITICAL PARTY AND FACTION.

All of the above employ propagandists whose job it is to persuade voters that their team are the good guys and opposing teams are comprised of fools and demons. All are lying. There are no good guys in politics, just power hungry psychopaths who want to rob the public treasury, seize control over private industry, and tell the rest of us how we must live.

In societies that are not morally and spiritually bankrupt, the ability of these villains to rob and enslave the public are limited. They must maintain a facade of legitimacy in order to maintain the support of their victims, aka voters. They can only go so far. When one political faction or another oversteps its bounds and does things that are clearly immoral or contrary to the public good, their support drops, they lose elections, and another faction increases its power instead. Over and over, round and round, every faction competes for the folly of the electorate, with no side gaining permanent supremacy.

We call this the political process, in which we the people decide which band of criminals we are going to give power to based upon whose lies and empty promises seem most appealing at that moment. Criminal ambitions on all sides are constrained because criminal ambition is set against criminal ambition, and no gang ever wins forever.

But as America proceeds headlong into abject moral and spiritual bankruptcy, this mechanism increasingly fails to function, and the worst of the worst on all sides are emboldened to be overtly criminal in their actions and aims.

Welcome to 2022.

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SquashParticular5381 t1_iui1hj2 wrote

You can say "just like the X" all you want. Fine, there are shared traits. But some politicians ARE worse than others, and the GOP has openly embraced complete manipulation of elections not just through influencing people, but by invalidating actual results. They are actually saying "I will only accept the result of the election if I win. Otherwise I will declare victory anyway and try to stop me - my supporters have more guns". And the platform they push is control of people's personal individual choices with not only an implied threat but explicit threat of physical violence. In America, on a broad scale, this is a low point. Maybe not unique or the lowest, but it's really very low.

Conservatism and authoritarianism go hand in hand. And no, communism is not a counterpoint. Communism is not liberal, nor has it ever been practiced as a form of government. That was fascism pretending to be communism.

And for the record, yes, I believe that could be a real threat too. It's just not currently the imminent threat.

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Sun_Devilish t1_iuimxfm wrote

All of the propaganda which portrays the Grifters On Parade as demons and villains can be matched by equally deceptive propaganda designed to portray the Democrats as demons and villains.

Some of this propaganda, put out by both sides, might even be true. Using the truth to tell lies is the hallmark of high grade propaganda.

Do not be fooled into thinking that one or another political party is on your side and fighting the good fight. All political parties are fundamentally corrupt, run by people whose only interest is increasing their own power, wealth, and position.

The most that we as voters can do is play them off against each other and make sure that none ever gain enough power that elections no longer matter, which is something that ALL of them would like to achieve.

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SquashParticular5381 t1_iuj6s06 wrote

Truth. I'm pointing out which one I perceive to be (by far) the greatest current threat. I perceive that because their plan could make it impossible to rebalance the system, and remove all possible checks on their power.

We've been lucky, historically, as bad as things have gotten. At least we've had politicians willing to concede defeat and step back to try again. There is honor in honoring that system. Now it's not even that gerrymandering is out of control, but a plan to forcibly ignore results and remove all possibly points of opposition to coup.

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Sun_Devilish t1_iuje8zt wrote

I've been hearing from the Republicans that the Democrats reject the results of every election that they do not win, and have plans and schemes in place to seize power by force.

I hear the same thing about the Republicans from the Democrats.

These partisan hack accusations have been going on for decades now.

Go spend some time on partisan blogs for both factions and you'll soon discover that they are each making much the same accusations against the other.

The choice between the Republicans and the Democrats is the same as the choice between the Gambinos and the Lucchese.

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Jdomtattooer t1_iud9dvb wrote

Happens with my profession, tattooing, and always has had, though.

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[deleted] t1_iud1te8 wrote

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[deleted] t1_iudaxrf wrote

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