Driver Retraining Program 3 times for license reinstatement after 15 years of incompetence?

Submitted by AllstarGaming617 t3_11z6udg in massachusetts

Anyone ever get forced/told they have to take the 8 hour DRP course multiple times for reinstatement? I’m not even a mass resident. I’ll try to keep this as short as possible. Still will be an epic rant though. I was a Connecticut resident at the time and I was pulled over on the north side of Springfield on 91 back in 2008 for a “lane violation”(Cop was following me from the mass/CT border until the wind-y bit of 91 leaving Springfield headed north and hit me as soon as my tires barely skimmed the white line of the breakdown lane). I was in college at the time and paid the ticket with a money order. Fast forward 5 years to 2013 where I was pulled over north of Worcester for not having a windshield sticker(cop didn’t even bother to look at my CT plates, just my windshield) and I told him CT no longer issued Window stickers after 2010. He was apologetic for his mistake and was going to let me go after checking my license. Comes back, asks me to step out of my vehicle, and arrests me for driving on a revoked license(in mass). The whole thing caught me completely off guard and I was super confused. Eventually I find out they have no record of ever receiving my payment for the ticket in 2008 so my license to drive a vehicle was suspended in mass. Luckily I still had my receipt of payment in my files and after some back and forth with the RMV everything was dropped. Move forward to 2017. I get pulled over in Amesbury because my vehicle matched the description of a vehicle the local police were looking for. Upon checking my license I get arrested AGAIN for the same damn thing. Suspended license for non-payment of a ticket from 2008. This time after several trips to the RMV and a court hearing they tell me my receipt of payment from 2008 can’t be validated because they’ve migrated all of thier files to a digital system. Out of frustration (and the need to be able to drive in mass) I pay the fine(and new fines) again in exchange for the state dropping the arrest off my record(extortion..cough cough). I make sure to get all documentation possible to record my payments, and that this is finally done with and can not happen again. Jump to last week. Since the first ticket in 2008 I’ve graduated with a masters degree, built a successful career, got married, and own a home in Nashua. All of a sudden I get a letter in the mail from the national safety council. The letter states my license is suspended in Massachusetts and in order to get it back I must attend 3 driver retraining programs. The same 8 hour course, 3 times(and pay a fee…of course.) My wife and I go to the RMV where I show them all the documentation I have. The original ticket and payment. The paperwork from the 1st arrest(payment of fine and proof of expungement), Paperwork from second arrest(same paperwork) and the final notice from the court in Newburyport showing all fines paid, and all previous violations considered settled and my license valid. The RMV says all they can tell me is that they don’t see any owed fines against me, but my license will remain suspended until I’ve completed the course 3 times because of “multiple infractions”and there’s nothing I can do about it. Has anyone ever experienced anything like this? Been made to take the same class multiple times? Surely there’s a way I can just take the class once. My business does work all over the country and it won’t be till fall or winter before I can take 3 8 hour courses in a short window. Being in Nashua I have to drive through mass constantly, I can’t have this shit bite me in the ass again because the RMV and the court system doesn’t have their shit together. This is beyond ridiculous, 15 years of harassment and extortion because my tires grazed a white line for half a second when I was 20. We bought our house just before the pandemic and I had put off changing my license from CT to NH and was planning to do so this month. Since mass is one of the 5 states that doesn’t participate in the national license reporting system, is there a slim chance they loose track of me when I switch my license and address to NH? Any advice/shared similar experiences welcomed. Thanks for reading my long ass rant lol.

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Drift_Life t1_jdbgngt wrote

This sounds like a good case for some investigative journalism. Call Channel 7 about this government extortion

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AllstarGaming617 OP t1_jdbi74w wrote

Not a terrible idea. Who is channel 7? Are they the most popular news outlet with an investigative team? Since meeting my wife(who’s from mass) and subsequently spending time in the state/eventually moving to Nashua we’ve always been cord cutters and haven’t had live television. The only Boston/mass network I’m familiar with is wmur(ch 5 I think) just because I use to use their weather app on my phone before I traveled so much for work.

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melanarchy t1_jdcmghi wrote

Cord cutting isn't veganism, you don't have to tell everybody about it. You also possess google and can look something like that up.

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AllstarGaming617 OP t1_jdee5c7 wrote

It was simply an explanation as to why I didn’t know what network/news outlet channel 7 is. Without that context the converse answer would have been “what are you stupid? Just turn your tv on”.

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Username7239 t1_jdb7g4p wrote

You need an attorney

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AllstarGaming617 OP t1_jdb8k68 wrote

Hoping to avoid that. The RMV confirmed that I don’t owe any fines, and they don’t see any motor vehicle related arrests on my driving record. Just that I’m required to take this course 1 time per each moving violation in order to reinstate my license. The course is only 100.00 and a lawyer seems costly to get me out of 2 of them. I’m more than willing to take it once, I can find time for that. But 3 times is impossible. I just spent 3 weeks in Europe and my business was really strained with me gone for so long. I literally don’t have the option to skip 2 or 3 work trips for these courses. Was hoping someone here had experience with having been given notice of needing to take the same stupid course multiple times and finding a way to reduce that. I mean it’s literally an 8 hour drivers ed course with a brainless test at the end, surely someone in the RMV system can see reason and realize that’s pointless. Shit I’d even pay for all 3 courses, but taking them is redundant as hell.

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Username7239 t1_jdb8r9u wrote

The RMV will never see reason. You're capitulating to something you should never have to do.

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AllstarGaming617 OP t1_jdb9uhd wrote

That’s the one marginal reason I do see need for an attorney. I think the biggest mistakes was not having one when I thought I had finally settled the matter with Newburyport. I screwed myself with that deal. I paid fines for “moving violations” in exchange for the misdemeanor of driving on a suspended license dropped. I believe they held me over a barrel and got the state off the hook for thier mistakes by getting me to pay for moving violations. I’m sure a lawyer or even someone level headed without my lingering annoyance would have realized that was a bad idea. My criminal record remained clear but my mass licensure still had all its strikes. That’s on me for caving and thinking “one last” payment would be the end of it as long as I kept meticulous record.

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ManifestDestinysChld t1_jdccv87 wrote

Look at that rant you wrote above. Look at how poorly this has been going for you for like 20 years.

Do you want to keep doing the same thing, and continue getting fucked?

No?

Then do something different, and get a lawyer.

The DMV is trying like hell to teach you that you are not actually solving this problem with your approach. Sounds like they're trying to teach you for the 3rd or 4th time now. Are you going to learn that lesson this time?

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AllstarGaming617 OP t1_jde7man wrote

Admittedly you’re not wrong and I’m being overtly passive in trying to just achieve the end goal as simply as possible. The first two instances when I was 20 and 25 are excusable. My first two interactions with the legal system. The biggest mistake was not lawyering up on what I thought was the final issue in Newburyport court. My issue with litigation is time, and the fact that I think I may have shot myself in the foot when I thought I was finally settling the matter and got all the official documentation that everything was paid and my license was considered valid based on no fines being owed. Looking through the paperwork vs state law im worried I essential “plead” guilty for moving violations in return for having the misdemeanor of driving on a suspended removed from my record. That’s not how it was presented to me in court, and why I feel stupid for not lawyering up at that point. So I’m not sure a lawyer could do anything for me now.

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weareeverywhereee t1_jdco13w wrote

FYI this course is garbage. I got 3 speeding tickets in a certain time so i had to automaticallly take this…Lowell connector is just one speed trap. It’s eight hours of the most basic shit ever, and beware to be appalled by your classmates. 90% of my class had multiple DUIs and hadn’t driven in like 10-15 years it was a joke.

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Green18Clowntown t1_jdbzi48 wrote

Similar thing happened to me over a parking ticket I supposedly got while I was out of the country for 2 years and the car was in CA. But I supposedly got a parking ticket in some town in Western MA. Got arrested in Colorado on a work trip while driving my boss, after the RMV told me I was all set. That was after initially being pulled over and arrested in NY over the “ticket” from 7 years prior. I ended up paying the RMV a bunch of times and still have no idea what happened. Good Luck

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AllstarGaming617 OP t1_jdc0kno wrote

Yeah through some comments here and a few DMs it seems that shit record keeping in mass is a running theme. Coming to grips that I might be stuck taking these courses. I have some mildly herniated discs in my neck that I do physical therapy and regular steroid injections for. My doctor is really cool, I might be able to get her to write something up explaining my issue over inflating the idea that I can’t sit in a classroom desk for significant periods of time and see if I can get off going to the in-person classes and take them online that is offered to out of new England drivers. I’ve driven every length of highway in every state in the country. I know the laws better than the instructors of the courses so if I could do it at home or on the road for work where I can just zone out and watch Netflix and not even participate, I could still pass whatever bs test they have at the end. Fingers crossed.

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smolanonymousecat t1_jdb71r2 wrote

Im just here to see if anyone actually reads all that

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Username7239 t1_jdb7f8v wrote

I did. Guy got fucked by poor record keeping by the state.

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AllstarGaming617 OP t1_jdb7ban wrote

I wouldn’t blame anyone for choosing to ignore my rant lol. Especially considering I didn’t include a TLDR of any kind.

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[deleted] t1_jdcmfz2 wrote

I read it all. Honestly not a bad read. Way better than that dude who's mad at his son for going to the wrong elementary school or whatever the issue was

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NativeMasshole t1_jdc83l3 wrote

There was actually a scandal around this several years ago that caused the head of our RMV to step down. They were keeping absolute shit records on out of state infractions for years. Basically just stuffing them in a filing cabinet and forgetting them.

I know there's a court system under the RMV, not sure why they told you that you can't file for an appeal. They're notoriously hard to deal with on stuff like this. Unfortunately, you'll probably have to hire a lawyer to help sort this out. Maybe try contacting both states' AGs too. Or your state rep and senator.

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NativeMasshole t1_jdcbmxw wrote

Also maybe try to find the higher ups info for the RMV under mass.gov and contact them too. Raise hell with any and all officials you can get a line to.

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AllstarGaming617 OP t1_jde61nk wrote

Oh this is excellent information. Because of the last interaction I had with the state I thought I kind of put the nail in my own coffin by paying the infractions in exchange for the removal of the misdemeanor driving on a suspended. Akin to a plea deal, I was concerned by doing that I’d have no legal recourse going forward. Knowing they’ve had legal issues themselves, potentially the period of time in which this first happened to me might give me some ground to stand on. I’ll look into that and proceed with contacting people higher up via the mass.gov directory. I didn’t realize the RMV had a court system/legal connection to the state(most traffic courts aren’t connected directly to the RMV/dmv in other states.) thanks for the info!

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NativeMasshole t1_jdevad8 wrote

You may have screwed yourself by pleading out, I didn't catch that. I'm no lawyer though.

As for the court, it's actually the opposite here. It's directly under the RMV and has no connection to the rest of the state court system. Which makes them hell to deal with, since they don't have any real oversight, so they do what they want. You're probably going to need a lawyer, unless someone with power takes pity on you.

Sorry my state fucked you over!

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AllstarGaming617 OP t1_jdfwrjq wrote

Makes perfect sense now understanding that. During both arrests actual courts would look at the evidence and see reason. Never really had difficulty with them because I always had the right documentation. Never understood why I had so much success removing/expunging the misdemeanors for driving on a suspended with them, yet couldn’t resolve a stupid lane violation for over a decade. Never realized they essentially had no connection. I’ve always been proud of being an “honorary” masshole. I grew up on the border less than 10 minutes from my house to Webster mass. My college girlfriend went to school in Springfield so I spent a lot of time there. Then after college I met my wife who’s from the north shore and we had a place on Salisbury beach for a few years before buying a house in Nashua and getting married. She still works for a town government in mass and my business does a fair amount of work there as well. I’ve always loved the state, still do, but this shithousery is beyond comprehension lol.

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DeffNotTom t1_jdb8tz0 wrote

I've taken the class 6 times. 3 times when I was younger and into street racing, 1 retake because I "fell asleep" (according to the proctor), and twice because of a fuck show error like yours. The suspensions and being assigned the class are automatic. As far as I can tell from the nightmare I went through the last time, there's zero avenues to appeal it. Maybe you could get a lawyer and sue the state about it, but good luck with that.

The class sucks. It's a glorious waste of time and they run them with an iron fist. I've seen people be thrown out without warning for "having an attitude", blinking too long, going to the bathroom too many times, coming back from lunch 2 minutes late.. it's actually insane.

I don't envy you. But you're likely going to have to take them all. Also if someone runs your plates either manually, or with an automatic scanner, and they see it's registered to someone with a suspended license, they'll pull you over. Just something to keep in mind if you're thinking about how long you can roll the dice and keep driving.

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AllstarGaming617 OP t1_jdbbhum wrote

Yeah, I’m not trying to roll the dice at all. Especially when I have to drive in mass while working, or even down to Logan to fly out for work. The only reason I’m not considering litigation is time. That shit could take forever. I also think I may have screwed myself on what I thought was the final say in the matter. When Newburyport superior court told me I could just repay all the fines and they would issue me documentation that the matter was settled I essentially traded the misdemeanor driving on a suspended for admitting to moving violations. Even though one violation was for the lack of an inspection window sticker(didn’t need one on a vehicle registered in CT) and the other was for rolling through a stop sign(when the cop in Amesbury pulled me over he flat out admitted it was a made up violation as he thought I was driving a vehicle suspected of being stolen and he needed a reason to pull the vehicle over(he seemed genuinely upset and apologetic as he was arresting me for the license suspension issue when he was just looking for a thief)). So by taking that deal I didn’t consider they would leave those “moving violations” on my record despite them not being valid motor vehicle stops. I think once I paid those final fines to “settle” the matter I unknowingly and stupidly admitted to the infractions. I’m not sure there’d be any technicalities I could hit the state with because of that, despite my impeccable record keeping. The classes also put a time strain on me. I’m irreplaceable at my job and I just took my first vacation in nearly a decade for 3 weeks in Europe and it put crazy strain on the business. I only have a single weekend off there scheduled between now and October. In between a rock and a hard place right now. Blows lol

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Large_Inspection_73 t1_jdcex5h wrote

Paragraphs my man

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AllstarGaming617 OP t1_jde7uke wrote

Fair criticism. It’s a good thing this Reddit post is longer than anything I have to write for work or I’d be in trouble lol.

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Bada__Ping t1_jdcvfn9 wrote

I had to take that program when I was young because I got 3 surchargable offenses in a short period of time and there was some guy who had ran from police, hit a bunch of stuff with the car and crashed it. He was on his 5th consecutive class to get his license back

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[deleted] t1_jdcgnfp wrote

Get a lawyer. They’ve been screwing you for 20 years. You might take all these classes and still get another letter 5 years from now for the same

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AllstarGaming617 OP t1_jde9tss wrote

I don’t know why I’m being so stubborn about this, maybe just years of frustration. This whole thing is literally my only interaction with the legal system and I’m naively believing as long as I do everything right and keep impeccable records I’ll ultimately be rewarded by the correct application of the law. I know…naive. I’ve checked with the RMV and the jurisdictions that I was detained in prior and they have no record of me owing fines or have being previously arrested so it seems as the state finally lived up to the last agreement that everything was scrubbed from the court system and I’m no longer expected to pay fines. It’s just these classes. Someone suggested trying to contact higher ups at the dmv via the state and I think that’s my next move before getting a lawyer. Speed is my main goal right now and mental block is getting this resolved as fast as possible because I don’t really have the luxury of time for litigation to play out. It may come to that. I’m going to have to get real creative with solution though because I don’t know if anyway for me to avoid driving in mass while litigation plays out.

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Function-Elegant2525 t1_jdchz65 wrote

I am also a victim of MA not not being on the national license reporting system. But real problems were not here but in Florida. In 2002 I was in a minor accident driving my mom's car while on vacation in Orlando. I was fully covered under her insurance and I paid all tickets from it. My license was from out of state, the car was from out of state and not in my name. Florida being Florida assumed I had no insurance at all. Florida then suspended my driving privileges and never informed me and of course the Mass RMV was never informed . Flash forward to 2008 on another vacation to Florida with my ex wife and then in-laws. I get pulled over for a speeding on the Florida Turnpike. The cop then asks if I was in an accident in Orlando. He said I either didn't have insurance or I didn't pay the ticket and arrests me on the side of the highway. You should have seen the look on in-laws' faces. I spent a lovely night in jail and many new friends. I spent many hours that trip at the Florida 'DMV' to get this cleared up. And still had to make another trip for the court date. When I get home of course I go to RMV because the Florida cops confiscated my license. Of my MA license is perfectly good no record of anything from Florida. So of course they never suspended me. If they had I would have taken care of this years earlier. Of course if FL had talked to MA they would seen that I was in a fully insured car in the first place.

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AllstarGaming617 OP t1_jdebs94 wrote

Ok so you’re one of the few people here who have had some inter-state experience with the mass RMV and them not being apart of the national reporting system. My license is currently in Connecticut. We bought our house in Nh just before the pandemic and I put off migrating my license. How disorganized is that system? When I move my license to New Hampshire I’ll have a new license number, new address etc…any chance mass looses connection with my precious issues because of this. This is literally my only issue/interaction with the legal system so excuse my ignorance on how the police and their systems operate. If I were to get pulled over in mass with my new NH license how much information do the police have? There’s no social security numbers on licenses and I have a mildly generic first and last name. Since mass doesn’t get information about licenses and their movement from other states is there a slim chance my issues wouldn’t be detectable? I have no idea what level of information pops up for a police offer when they run a license through their computer. I know it’s a long shot

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trimolius t1_jdci1jk wrote

I was about to come in here and comment “you’re probably a bad driver stop whining” but I read the whole thing and this is seriously messed up!

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AllstarGaming617 OP t1_jdedp6w wrote

That’s the most frustrating thing, Im an excellent driver! And I know every single state traffic law better than any course instructor. I am the production manager of major touring band and in the first 5-7 years of the bands major explosion I spent 9 months a year on the road driving a van-towing a trailer and even drove the tour bus on our first dozen tour bus runs. I’ve seen every inch of every major highway on the entire continent(US/Mexico/Canada) several times. I estimate I’ve driven over 1 million miles in the last 18 years and that ticket in 2008 is my only legitimate traffic violation lol. It’s nuts!

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trimolius t1_jdeed7p wrote

It’s crazy, you’re absolutely getting screwed, I hope you’re able to find a resolution!!

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[deleted] t1_jdc26rt wrote

Thats when I just drive anyway and let the pigs sort it out

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