In light of Biden announcing funding for the Hudson tunnels, let’s not forget Chris Christie canceled the original project which would have been done by now and cost half as much.

Submitted by Flashinglights0101 t3_10pylnh in newjersey

He took the money earmarked for the project to avoid tax increases so he can run for president.

Edit: If taxpayers told our elected officials not to build anything out of fear of going over budget, we would still have dirt roads and would have to fetch water from the river. Most projects will be over budget, especially when they are complex and extensive. That is just the nature of engineering and construction. But we wasted 30 years of transit-oriented development because of the lack of the new tunnels. Why doesn't New Jersey have more train stations? Well, there is a moratorium on NEW train stations until new tunnels are added into NYC (due to the congestion from the existing train traffic). If we had new tunnels, we can have new stations, more transit-oriented housing, hopefully lower housing cost, etc.

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mszanka t1_j6mshlz wrote

Republican policies are typically myopic.

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joedonut t1_j6mt37y wrote

And would have left the riders in Macys. I'm far from a Christie fan but for all the wrong reasons he was right in this.

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AnonRon6 t1_j6mt7f0 wrote

So sorry can someone please tell me what the hudson tunnels are

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PracticableSolution t1_j6mtxxc wrote

Part of the reason it was canceled was because it wasn’t going to cost half as much. It was a notoriously underbaked design.

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p4177y t1_j6muk9d wrote

Replying to AnonRon6 (#1,657,948)

Rail tunnels going under the Hudson River to Penn Station. Currently there are only two tracks under the river. Plan is to have two more tracks to run more trains.

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KamikaziSolly t1_j6mvnxp wrote

Did Christie have any tangible chance at a presidential run? He seemed to get smacked out of the race pretty early IIRC.

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nesbett t1_j6mvywa wrote

At the time it was clear that the actual cost would be way higher than the estimated price. Name one large project like this that comes in on budget and on time. And at the time New Jersey's finances were a mess, yes, mostly due to Republican mismanagement, but in this case moving the initial monies to other state needs and punting on the tunnel project was shrewd.

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squeege222 t1_j6mwrge wrote

Replying to KamikaziSolly (#1,658,741)

Possibly? One of the big problems with his campaign was how he was advised to holp back and have more decorum. Something Christie was not known for. Had he been his true self he probably would have polled better. Of course you have the lightning in a bottle that was 2016 Trump for the GOP base interfering with any chance of him winning but it could have been him up there instead of Ted Cruz or Marco Rubio had he not been so chucked by his advisors.

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Flashinglights0101 OP t1_j6mwsyo wrote

Replying to PracticableSolution (#1,658,179)

For a project of this size, complexity and scope, it is always going to be underbaked. This project is going to go over budget, full stop. Even if we spent another decade planning, it will still go over budget. But I would rather have a project go over budget with pre-Covid construction costs than have to pay what current costs are. We should be thankful there was not another disaster that could have closed the tunnels.

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Flashinglights0101 OP t1_j6mxal8 wrote

Replying to LikeFrankieSaid (#1,658,987)

Dude that is not even the whole picture. New Jersey may have been on the hook for the additional cost but that is because of the infrastructure improvements that were required in New Jersey. Also, by canceling the project, NJ had to pay back the federal government about $600 million for work already completed by the Feds. The deal may not have been the best at the time but it is a whole lot better than today.

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Flashinglights0101 OP t1_j6mxjbv wrote

Replying to KamikaziSolly (#1,658,741)

He had a really good chance if it wasn't for Trump. Christie was the loud candidate that would have outshined the other candidates (like Jeb Bush). Also, coming from a dark blue state, he would have done well if not for Trump ruining his political career.

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metsurf t1_j6mz9rp wrote

Replying to PracticableSolution (#1,658,179)

Under-designed and not funded fully at the federal level. State would have been on the hook for a lot of it. It was going to terminate in the vicinity of the PATH 33rd St station with no definitive plan or funding for the terminus.

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Flashinglights0101 OP t1_j6n2u52 wrote

Replying to PracticableSolution (#1,659,652)

NJ & NY agreed to the deal, Christie torpedoed it. Port Authority, Amtrak, Fed government, New Jersey and New York all agreed. Christie came in last minute and walked away. Later on we find out it is because he needed to use the funds to prevent the gas tax.

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Flashinglights0101 OP t1_j6n4ref wrote

Replying to metsurf (#1,659,904)

Feds were funding $3 billion with a commitment for more. That was about half of the expected cost at the time. Today, Feds are funding double because the overall cost is double which is still half of the total cost. We are basically in the same place, just a decade later.

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_TommySalami t1_j6n4xpx wrote

Christie is garbage and I still laugh that I've sold more books than he has, even though I never got to be on the Colbert Report.

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AlanMercer t1_j6n5vlj wrote

Replying to PracticableSolution (#1,658,179)

Christie didn't replace the Corzine project with any tunnel development at all. Whatever you think about Corzine's plan, Christie's subsequent action was short-sighted because whatever the budget is, it only goes up as we move forward in time.

Christie in fact strangled the NJT operating budget to the point at which it could no longer run a full schedule of trains. They didn't have enough crew and functioning rolling stock.

The tunnels have to be replaced for the state's economy to continue to prosper. The only thing more expensive than getting it done now is trying to replace it on an emergency basis after something really goes wrong.

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lost_in_life_34 t1_j6n5xtq wrote

classic NY and NYC they wanted something built, someone else to pay for it and get the financial benefits themselves. just like East Side Access. 3 times the original estimates which were a lie and now they are trying to get congestion pricing to pay the bonds for that

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OttoBaker t1_j6n6mji wrote

Thousands of people lost their jobs over his cancellation. Engineers, surveyors, geotechs. He didn’t campaign on this either. He did it to preserve his status for a future presidential run. The project would have created 10k permanent jobs and fully funded the state pension system. A lot of ground work had already been done. He also ran on the promise of same sex marriage, which is why a lot of people voted for him that would typically not vote republican. He immediately flip flopped on that promise. He defunded NJ transit hurting mostly the elderly, and disabled. He lost rare federal dollars on both infrastructure and education. He had very few accomplishments that have been overshadowed by his failures.

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MrRob_NJ t1_j6n6ste wrote

And this dipshit wants to be president now. Good luck with that.

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PracticableSolution t1_j6n7rc3 wrote

Replying to AlanMercer (#1,662,060)

Completely agree that he single-handedly destroyed NJ Transit. It will take another decade or two before it gets back to where it should be, never mind the havoc at the Turnpike Authority and Port Authority. The man was a destroyer of worlds.

But, he had a solid point on the entire ARC program.

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stickman07738 t1_j6n8yrl wrote

LOL, blaming Christie - get real - no project in NY/NJ metro area runs on or near budget. As soon as they start digging, environmental will crop up and then union issues will occur. This one will also probably double by its end.

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Sagacious_Sapien t1_j6nal0j wrote

Replying to Flashinglights0101 (#1,659,122)

Most projects are designed with a 10% to 20% contingency; not 200%. The original was ABSOLUTELY half-baked and it should have been canceled since NJ would have been left holding the bag.

Now that the feds are ponying up more, it is not a win in Phil Murphy's column. Had the Federal government stepped up before, you're right, it would have been done by now.

An even better plan would be to invest in a fully integrated mass transit system instead of relying on highways that only have a lifespan of 20 years.

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Big_Dinner3636 t1_j6nbcdq wrote

There's absolutely no chance that a public works project between NY and NJ would be even close to on time or under budget. Absolutely no way.

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Special_FX_B t1_j6ngip0 wrote

Ah, yes, the worst governor in my lifetime. Well, except maybe Corrine who was inept.

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jimlaregina t1_j6nrkqp wrote

Let's see what Biden actually accomplishes (he breaks promises more than a French waiter breaks dishes) but I appreciate the spirit of your comment.

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vague_diss t1_j6ntzbf wrote

Replying to Special_FX_B (#1,665,678)

Some appointed officials perhaps. The people who do the nuts and bolts of the work do a thankless, vital job with an insane amount of scrutiny and review. Its not a perfect organization but NJ and NY would be devastated if they weren’t there.

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Trainlover1279 t1_j6nungy wrote

It was going to a basement station tgat didn't alleviate any if the current issues that plague the current tunnels.

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Chose_a_usersname t1_j6o1k2w wrote

I'm pissed that Christie ruined having F1 races from NY to NJ through the tunnel. NJ could have made so much stupid money

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BiggyShake t1_j6o2eiw wrote

It wouldn't have been finished by now, but it was certainly necessary, at almost any dollar cost.

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STMIHA t1_j6o5wmf wrote

The gateway project is light years ahead of reheat the arc would have done especially when it comes to capacity. The only thing that would have made this whole situation better is if both tunnels got built.

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nesbett t1_j6oe3t7 wrote

Replying to SyndicalistCPA (#1,667,748)

There were a lot of other state needs. Pension funding, pre-existing highway and other transportation costs (e.g. NJ Transit), you name it, there was a budget area that was short funded, and some at risk of legal consequence. The state's credit rating is another factor. Taking on the gateway project debt, at that time, could have been been really bad for our credit rating, and consequentially increased the state's borrowing costs. We just weren't in a financially appropriate place for that kind of project at that time.

Under Murphy, we're in a much better fiscal position, and federal support for Gateway with Biden's infrastructure plan is better now than it was back then.

I know everyone wants to crap on Christie, and I'm no supporter, but this is one topic I think he made the right moves on.

​

Hope this helps answer your question. Cheers.

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thetechmama t1_j6oi09v wrote

I'll never forget this. I was so annoyed when he cancelled the project but still had the budget to take a helicopter all around the state for personal events and shut down LBI so he could chill there with his family. Can't stand selfish politicians.

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popshockey t1_j6ol1tt wrote

It would’ve been funded majorly by NJ residents with a giant tax burden. Now it’s a federal project which makes sense since it serves multiple states. It was good for NJ Christie canceled arc. The other cuts he did to rail where the problem

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mathfacts t1_j6oqdy8 wrote

Not a Christie fan. Dude was majorly stingy iirc

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Chose_a_usersname t1_j6ort9u wrote

Replying to jimlaregina (#1,679,163)

Is that what it sounds like? Or you have zero policy to point to that would actually make things better for the lower and middle class that the orange man ran on (which is no policy). So your only defense is to personally lash out at someone rather than having a defensible position. Face it bud your party is all about "feelings" nothing about good government

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kindofdivorced t1_j6orwtj wrote

He used the money to rebuild the Pulaski Skyway, actually. Total waste.

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herslave2 t1_j6p03w8 wrote

Just another waste of our money. Look at the NJTPK tearing down all the service areas. Really its just a ploy to spend money because if they don't then they can't keep raising the tolls! There was nothing wrong with the service areas. And they could put 4 more Tunnels up the problem is on the NYC side because of the Traffic going into the City it dumps you right into all traffic lights.

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thebruns t1_j6p24m9 wrote

Fun fact: Construction had already started. They literally had to fill some of the hole back in with dirt

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thebruns t1_j6p2ixv wrote

Replying to metsurf (#1,659,904)

> going to terminate in the vicinity of the PATH 33rd St station

You know thats better than what the current proposal is, which is terminating at 28th and 8th right?

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Trainlover1279 t1_j6p4pil wrote

Replying to thebruns (#1,685,462)

  1. The new tunnels connect with Penn Station.
  2. Amtrak & nj transit can use them not just nj transit like with the old plan that was canceled.
  3. Old plan was dead end terminal not a through station where amtrak/nj transit can continue east through queens or further.
  4. If gateway was built and something happened to existing tunnels, the new tunnels wouldn't help out with getting trains from outside of NYC/points east to anything south/west on amtrak.
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Sagacious_Sapien t1_j6p6ln8 wrote

Replying to nesbett (#1,676,248)

>Under Murphy, we're in a much better fiscal position, and federal support for Gateway with Biden's infrastructure plan is better now than it was back then.

I'm not sure I can agree with "a much better fiscal position" comment. Murphy borrowed BILLIONS ($10 billion) to fund the State's pension obligations, and to improve cash position, which almost every governor has done. Frankly, if it wasn't for the COVID funds and other federal funds that were handed out in the last couple of years, we would be in really bad shape.

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Race_Strange t1_j6p8idv wrote

As much as I don't like Chris Christie for Cancelling the project. We kinda got a better project out of it. Everything from Newark to New York is going to be upgraded. Something to keep in mind. At the current moment, only 26 trains can navigate the tunnel and hour after the tunnels are complete. They'll be able to triple that number. Some estimates put it at 45-60 trains and hour.

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hfhifi t1_j6pb7fk wrote

I hated Christie for that. He lied about fear of overruns because The Big Dig in Boston was going on at the same time and had 200% cost overruns. Christie knew that. The Feds covered nearly all of it. I lived there from start to finish and the improvements it made in traffic and pollution was beyond imagination.

The one giant pain for commuters was that tolls went up on the Mass Pike(and still are)because the state was on the hook for a chunk of the overruns.

And somehow they are still a tiny fraction of Jersey. $7.50 to go the entire length of the Mass Pike. And in so so much better condition than the NJ Turnpike.

Still, Christie was witness to the Feds paying for most of the insane overruns on the project. Diverting that money was a total scam.

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pigsanddogs t1_j6pgzt0 wrote

Whats the over/under on the completion date and final cost? Its already projected to cost $16 Billion. At the current inflation rate, you can probably add a billion or two to that estimate each year. No way this gets completed for under $20 Billion. It won't be completed until 2038. Add a few more years to that because and I wouldn't think it'll get down until 2045ish.

So Biden does a photo op while pledging $292 million grant. Wow, That money will be enough to go toward studies, some initial engineering plans, and pay for the State of New Jersey's "Department of Building Stuff" to shuffle papers for a few years, make some public presentations on how this project will be transformative to the lives of least fortunate among us. But until someone shows up with $20 billion in a bag, nothing else will happen.

Just wait... Come back to this post in 30 years and I bet I'm right.

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