139_LENOX t1_jahxqti wrote
Fuck DeBlasio and Shea for defending this when it happened.
Don't forget that the NYPD chose to direct their resources to engage in this misconduct in the South Bronx while leaving looters in Soho to their own devices that same night.
Kettling these protestors was never about public safety, it was about the NYPD putting on a show of force against protestors demanding police accountability. When that didn't work out for them, they just stopped doing their jobs.
The NYPD is a fundamentally broken organization, and as long as the taxpayer keeps footing the bill for misconduct nothing will change.
CactusBoyScout t1_jai37ut wrote
I was at some of the protests that these lawsuits center around.
The NYPD had hundreds of officers in riot gear responding to peaceful protestors marching while actual looting took place maybe a mile away in Soho.
Conservatives like to conflate the two (protests and looting) but what I witnessed was completely peaceful protestors being attacked by police (charging at us in riot gear, knocking people down, hitting them, and arresting them) while store windows were being smashed with no police response a short distance away by organized groups.
I think it’s pretty obvious that the police wanted the looting to happen to discredit the protests. And that getting a chance to attack people who were criticizing them was just the cherry on top.
Silvery_Silence t1_jai6ap6 wrote
The nytimes has excellent reporting on all the police violence during the protests and they have the receipts. Tons of videos of cops literally assaulting protestors who aren’t a breaking any laws, some are literally doing nothing just standing there. It was horrendous.
MuchWalrus t1_jaio2ps wrote
I'd really like to see that, do you have a link by chance?
BooflessCatCopter t1_jalxd6r wrote
Before i recount this experience i just want to clarify i know that many, many others have had it much much worse and my heart goes out to them. I was super lucky, but at the same time never a trouble maker and just wanted to keep a low profile, peacefully participate/march, listen to speakers and observe.
I’ve experienced just what you described years ago in 2011 at Liberty Plaza, (Zuccotti Park). I’m a quiet person, much more so at that time. I had no signs, no offensive t-shirt or clothing, no long hair, no amplifying devices, no drugs, wasn’t drinking, they weren’t making an announcement, closing down the park for night. It wasn’t racial, we were the same race. I racked my brain for a long time after, analyzing what reason this officer had to do what he did. I have no idea to this day why this white shirt chose me, but it was super weird and surreal just like much of Occupy Wall Street was.
I was standing in one of the concrete brick bench circles, (i don’t know if they are still there or if the park has been given a makeover), at the NE corner of the park. A white shirt officer walked up to me inside that circle and i had no where to go, i was backed up against the bench. All he did was stand still, right in front of me, look me right in the eyes and stare, inches away, for what seemed like an eternity. I must have made a gesture looking behind me to try to show that I don’t have anywhere to go, but that didn’t faze this guy at all.
I can’t remember what else i did except just stand there and wait until he gave up on whatever his goal was. No words were even exchanged. I wanted to show this ape that I wasn’t afraid and would not take the bait. I kept my mouth shut and patiently waited and i either squeezed backward, awkwardly climbing out of that pinned position, scraping up my shoes or he walked away. I mostly just remember being pinned, the stare with arms crossed, silence and looking down at me like i was a cockroach.
WickhamAkimbo t1_jal2ykz wrote
My personal experiences at a dozen different protests involved watching cops being goaded and belittled by protestors and not responding. I only saw professional behavior the entire time in Lower Manhattan. The protestors were sometimes aggressive, but I never saw anyone break the law on either side. I've seen a few videos of NYPD abuse, but it didn't seem to be the norm at various protests by any stretch of the imagination.
Silvery_Silence t1_jam52sg wrote
Cool well there is more than enough video and other evidence to prove many cops literally assaulted protestors when there was no cause so your experience doesn’t mean it didn’t happen.
WickhamAkimbo t1_jankihk wrote
I didn't say that it didn't happen, it provably did. I very much question the idea that it occurred with enough regularity to justify throwing the entire NYPD under the bus.
Silvery_Silence t1_jant65y wrote
Lol there are tons of videos. I posted the link somewhere else in this thread. But if you want to doubt vídeo evidence feel free. Because cops are so good at accountability right? They didn’t get thrown under the bus give me a break. Police brutality helps no one including the police force.
WickhamAkimbo t1_jaoayxq wrote
I just said that I don't doubt the evidence. I doubt that it represents a majority of NYPD behavior or anywhere near enough frequency to judge the entire police force. I'm happy to see evidence used to hold individual officers accountable and punish bad actors.
Silvery_Silence t1_japelhk wrote
This is only one incident and involved hundreds of protestors lol. But yeah tell me again how this isn’t a systemic police problem.
WickhamAkimbo t1_japl404 wrote
Happy to give it a watch and give a more detailed response tomorrow. Off the bat, not super impressed with HRW's language covering the incident, which is just excessively biased in favor of protestors with apparently no interest in covering the events dispassionately and accurately. Maybe that's to be expected from a group that probably considers itself pretty anti-cop.
Yes, I don't think the NYPD have a systemic problem with excessive use of force. I interacted with them too many times in too many contexts for your claim to be statistically possible. I saw consistent use restraint in their actions and justifiable force when it was deployed. The abuse from dozen-plus protests I saw was coming solely from protestors (in the form of verbal abuse). That's an actually accurate accounting coming from someone that doesn't really prefer one group over the other.
Silvery_Silence t1_jawirq8 wrote
Haha, it’s the good old “my anecdotal experience is definitely more relevant and true than literally multiple investigations finding widespread abuse of power during the BLM protests of 2020.” You don’t want actual sources. You just want to pretend you’re right.
The HRW source was one source only. How about the gigantic payout/settlement? Pretty sure they wouldn’t settle a case they were confident about winning. I also posted a link to dozens of videos of cops bearing people up, sometimes the person being assaulted is merely standing there doing nothing before.
Police brutality apologists aren’t my thing.
Silvery_Silence t1_japdsda wrote
It was very widespread. No one said it was the “entire force”, do you know how large the force is? You seem mighty quick to absolve “the police.” It was absolutely widespread this has been widely reported as well as investigated. But yeah totally just a few bad apples. Let me know if you need any more receipts of this well documented failure at pretty much all levels to the police response here. There were multiple investigations that found widespread police abuse and look at that, only this week the nypd is about to pay a record settlement over their actions.
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/07/14/nyregion/nypd-george-floyd-protests.html
- An independent New York City police review board has recommended that the department punish dozens of officers for excessive use of force and other alleged misconduct during protests that followed the 2020 murder of George Floyd, according to a report released on Monday.
“Among the complaints, officers were found to have used batons and pepper spray on peaceful protesters in 140 instances. Dozens of allegations of abuse of authority, including officers refusing to identify themselves, concealing their badges and making false or misleading statements, were also substantiated, the report by Civilian Complaint Review Board (CCRB) said.”
Silvery_Silence t1_jape3zw wrote
Does hundreds of victims of violence that the nypd is about to settle with mean anything to you? Is that not widespread enough to signal systemic problems with the force?
libananahammock t1_jal5o8j wrote
Any videos?
WickhamAkimbo t1_jankdm6 wrote
Videos that I took yes, although I don't intend to upload them publicly. Many of the protestors that spoke to me asked me not to upload it.
Awkward-Painter-2024 t1_jaiangz wrote
It got Adams elected... It swung NYC congressional districts Red. Fuck the NYPD.
LoneStarTallBoi t1_jaklzxd wrote
The Cop Cycle:
Step 1: Blame high crime(existence of high crime unnecessary) on an insufficiently deferent city and demand more money.
Step 2: Get massive check
Step 3: Do nothing
Step 4: Return to Step 1.
casicua t1_jai9cme wrote
Conservatives obtusely conflating peaceful protests and looting is such a fundamental part of their playbook these days it’s laughable. Anyone with half a working brain cell can see right through it - but unfortunately it’s an effective tactic when courting their MAGA cult of idiots to get further in lockstep against progressives.
-SoItGoes t1_jaivnil wrote
They just equate skin color with peace.
Black people exist? Violent. Mobs of white people attacking police and attempting to kill politicians? Peaceful
ifiwereaplatypus t1_jajxpyf wrote
MAGA cult of idiots, if only.
“I’m a moderate Democrat but protestors really should learn to respect the officers in blue.”
“Gosh that’s horrible, it was a really dangerous time to be outside at night anyways. Why are they provoking the police?? Let them do their jobs.”
Roll eye so they join the space x train all the way around the globe and back.
OrangeSlimeSoda t1_jak3unp wrote
This happened in cities across America. Police intentionally took on the peaceful protestors because (1) they're less likely to fight back; (2) allowing the looting to continue helps spread fear and support for police; and (3) arresting peaceful protestors helps to conflate rioting and protesting.
Least-Cry-7317 t1_jak22se wrote
What time were you out protesting till? The rioting didn’t start till very late
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bangbangthreehunna t1_jakhfer wrote
The Bronx mass arrest was in response to Fordham Road being a legit riot. It was more than just Soho
WickhamAkimbo t1_jal2lxy wrote
I went to about a dozen protests in Lower Manhattan, half of them after dark, and saw largely peaceful protestors as well as professional cops. I saw protestors behaving aggressively, provocatively, maliciously, but ultimately legally, and I saw cops that didn't react and allowed the protestors to voice their opinions... loudly. Protestors also successfully occupied the northeast corner of the block around City Hall for over a month.
I think this represents the vast majority of the protester and police interactions during that time period, as much as each extreme refuses to believe it.
k1lk1 t1_jai1vzu wrote
We need to bust the police union. Anyone on the force should be able to be fired for any reason whatsoever. And none of this administrative leave bullshit. Oh, you're not doing your job? Bye, go find work in Elizabeth or Cleveland.
It's sooooooo fucking stupid that taxpayers are constantly on the hook for police misconduct yet nobody on the force ever pays a price for it.
[deleted] t1_jai6b3l wrote
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rNBA_Mods_Be_Better t1_jaj5re1 wrote
> They'd literally burn this city to the ground.
This is exactly the heart of the problem. The people responsible for "keeping law and order" in the city would burn it to the ground in a heartbeat if they were faced with accountability for doing illegal shit. It's the most glaringly obvious reason to disband them if we want a longterm solution.
darthravioli t1_jaj42jc wrote
You are right. Look at the racist riot they held in 1992 when the CCRB was created. A bunch of drunk off duty cops calling Dinkins and the black members of city council n-words as they trashed the streets. Fuck the NYPD and anyone who supports them.
k1lk1 t1_jai7t8j wrote
Alternate law enforcement would have to be a part of it for sure. You'd have to start with a separately run and managed force that grows over time.
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Kittycatkemtrails t1_jai8qyh wrote
And how is that so far from what they’re doing now? Only difference is how fast it happens and how much you actually see it happening.
project_twenty5oh1 t1_jaj8y8o wrote
It deadass needs to happen that way, actually. Send in the troops.
empirestrikes t1_jaii5wf wrote
Leave Cleveland alone haha
TonyzTone t1_jaik67s wrote
>We need to bust the police union.
We need to be very careful about this. Breaking the police union will affect other public sector unions, and possibly even private sector unions. IANAL, but I know that police unions are still protected by the different labor and collective bargaining laws.
MattJFarrell t1_jaipcgj wrote
Agreed. I strongly believe in unions, and think everyone should have some employment and legal protections that comes with membership in a union. What we need to do is to strip away some of the absurd powers that the police union has. Also, police misconduct should not be investigated by the police force. That should be a separate, state-level organization.
TonyzTone t1_jaj53in wrote
It's a classic "who watches the watchmen" situation.
The separate organization could be the Attorney General, which is far enough removed from daily policing activities that it makes sense. Civilian Complaint Review Board is also independent of NYPD so, there's that.
The issue is ultimately accountability. What should happen if a police officer steps outside of their legally-restrained role which unfortunately exists in a fast-paced, high-tension environment with a lot of grey areas and "he said, she said."
the_lamou t1_jakvgn5 wrote
>What should happen if a police officer steps outside of their legally-restrained role which unfortunately exists in a fast-paced, high-tension environment with a lot of grey areas and "he said, she said."
What SHOULD happen is that even the slightest possible hint of impropriety is met immediately with strict discipline, because any organization that has a state-sanctioned right to use force against human beings has to be held to the highest possible standard.
Police officers should have it drilled into their heads that every action is held to scrutiny and judged, and should be constantly reminded that they serve the public and not the other way around.
sunflowercompass t1_jakzx18 wrote
The military doesn't get fucking unions. The people who man our nuclear missiles don't have unions. I am pro labor as they come but maybe we can have this one exception.
TonyzTone t1_jal0uv6 wrote
Because when the law was passed barring military unions, we were at the height of the Cold War and the most ardent pro-military union elements were sympathetic to the USSR.
If anything, you might be pointing more to the need to allow military unions than anything. For what it’s worth, National Guard members serving in a state capacity can be unionized.
SwellandDecay t1_jak5vo0 wrote
Who do you think gets called in to bust up unions and violently suppress workers? It's cops. I can promise you that the SBA is not helping workers rights in any way shape or form.
numba1cyberwarrior t1_jai9r1u wrote
>nyone on the force should be able to be fired for any reason whatsoever.
Agreed we should do this to all public unions including teachers
vcarl t1_jaictyi wrote
Teachers have strict curricula and regulations on behavior, in a way I don't think could be reasonably argued the NYPD has a comparable system of accountability. I don't think anyone would seriously argue that what teachers need is less stability and less bargaining power.
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numba1cyberwarrior t1_jaific2 wrote
Did you read my comment there lol. I posted there one time calling out some guy for supporting an antisemite.
marketingguy420 t1_jajcbdm wrote
It was really clear that DeBlasio was terrified of the police. They doxxed his daughter and he was probably legit scared for his life at some point.
[deleted] t1_jak9zqr wrote
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mowotlarx OP t1_jakxuf5 wrote
No, they doxxed her. They leaked her private information to the SBA that then put it on Twitter.
[deleted] t1_jal5761 wrote
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[deleted] t1_jamhtyy wrote
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mowotlarx OP t1_janb9nv wrote
>Do you read
You 100% didn't read anything about the actual situation with Chiara and the data leak. And yet here you are with Do YoU ReAd. Do...literally anything, if you won't do "better."
Here's a quote from the article you refuse to read:
>The Police Department does not normally release internal police reports, and Ms. de Blasio’s contained personal details, including her height, weight, address, date of birth and driver’s license information.
>The post was removed for violation of Twitter rules, and the union’s account was suspended Monday morning.
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bangbangthreehunna t1_jamqq6x wrote
Discovery laws.
mowotlarx OP t1_janb520 wrote
The info on de Blasio's daughter wasn't published because of discovery laws. The NYPD illegally leaked her immediate arrest record to SBA who then tweeted it. Maybe read up on the issue you're arguing about. This was discussed at length.
Evening_Presence_927 t1_jaia27v wrote
You say that, but then the city turned around and elected a cop as mayor a year later, so clearly the residents of this city don’t give enough of a fuck to change things.
ChornWork2 t1_jakleg8 wrote
Friendly reminder that the looting and associated damage was disgusting, even before considering that NYPD was opting to not deal with it, even the damage estimate is well below what the police payout every year to settle misconduct cases...
Not that I like NYPost as a source, but figured in this case no one is going to question bias given the topic.
https://nypost.com/2020/06/03/looters-cost-nyc-businesses-tens-of-millions-experts-estimate/
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BooflessCatCopter t1_jaltokw wrote
NYPD did this, (kettling, imprisonment in vans with no bathroom breaks, and more I can’t remember), in 2004 during the Republican National Convention. They were sued and eventually lost. Lots of tax payer money has been lost over the years to law suits due to NYPD heavy handedness, politics, escalation tactics. Does anyone remember the 2008 body slamming that briefly hit the mainstream news and then vanished?
(2018) https://gothamist.com/news/10-years-ago-a-cop-bodyslammed-a-cyclist-during-critical-mass-ride
(2008) https://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/12/17/youtube.cyclist.cop/index.html
snoberto77 t1_jalw162 wrote
Spit facts homie
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bangbangthreehunna t1_jajhxu0 wrote
If they went to soho and did the same shit, you would have complained. The Bronx got hit really hard with looters. Look at the Fordham Riot.
Ice_Like_Winnipeg t1_jajm6pv wrote
They weren’t kettling rioters…
bangbangthreehunna t1_jajmmmt wrote
There were hundreds of arrests on Fordham that the Bronx DAs office dropped.
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