Submitted by linosan t3_11j6ckv in philosophy
the-cschnepf t1_jb1t2hi wrote
I agree with the premise, but Evangelion’s themes and philosophy explored are very surface level. It comes across as a work written by someone who took one college philosophy course and had an existential crisis.
angry_jotaro t1_jb37ds4 wrote
I mean that is true, Hideaki anno was supposed to make an anime not a contemplating philosophical study, he still does a pretty good Job integrating philosophical elements into a mecha story. Also I'm pretty sure everyone knows that anno was depressed and going through an existential crisis when he was making Evangelion, unlike how the article mentions he never even read kierkegaard. It still does a pretty good job even with the basic philosophical elements that it uses, like the instrumentality project, I think Evangelion is more of a character study with underlying philosophical themes.
mirh t1_jb2dk2m wrote
It's even worse than "surface level" actually.
The author literally admitted to just throw in everything and the kitchen sink he could come up with, just because it sounded/looked cool or mystic.
Mindestiny t1_jb2fcm3 wrote
And didn't actually do anything with the vast majority of it.
Even in Rebuild there are so many random one liners and plot threads that are just there to add mystery and don't actually go anywhere at all. Eva is a classic for a lot of reasons but the writing is straight nonsense
mirh t1_jb2gp2h wrote
I wished ghost in the shell had half the fame.
Mindestiny t1_jb2kato wrote
Right? So much anime from before Isekaipocalypse was heavily inspired by the exploration of philosophy and does a much more coherent and poignant job of it. It's kind of a head scratcher how Evangelion has stood the test of time while so many others fly mostly under the radar. I guess the others just didn't have enough big robots lol.
vulcanfury12 t1_jb30bht wrote
It stood the test of time because of Red Oni vs. Blue Oni. Rei vs. Asuka. The Eternal Waifu War.
AwakenedSheeple t1_jb4ahu8 wrote
Everyone knows Penpen is the real best girl. Just a penguin that likes to take baths and drink beer, none of that trauma.
JackedUpReadyToGo t1_jb3y1np wrote
I think it’s because Evangelion really resonates with the depressed, or at least people who have been depressed at one point. I’m not an anime guy but I happened to stumble across it at a low point in my younger years and it is etched onto my soul in a way no other media ever will be.
chromeless t1_jb422dq wrote
This is essentially accurate. Eva is about the mindset of a depressed person, that is its fundamental topic and what it focuses on portraying above all else. Things like philosophy, plot and character development are incidental elements and are at best handled in heavily ambiguous ways, but are preceded by a dedication to showing a particular state of mind wracked by guilt, uncertainty, stress and melancholy.
Artixe t1_jb4734z wrote
Yes. I recognize all the criticisms people have here because it is super fucking true. Actually, my first thread here where I don't feel completely clueless abt the subject. NGE doesn't cut very deep into actual philosophy or anything like that, despite that it indeed does resonate in an amazing way with people who were/are depressed, myself included. I would say that despite all NGE's flaws in writing and it's confusing and random lore it's one my favorite pieces of media. Etched in my soul too!
Rbespinosa13 t1_jb5b3a3 wrote
It’s also because Evangelion popularized a ton of common tropes in anime.
kalabungaa t1_jb4f5l2 wrote
Anno has always been a more intuitive filmmaker. He nailed the feelings of the characters in the show.
makeitabyss t1_jb45bn9 wrote
Outside the scope of this post, but would be interested in hearing some of your other anime recommendations that do have deeper philosophical characters/stories.
NotSuluX t1_jb4tyce wrote
Tatami Galaxy is very good. Can't describe it, you gotta watch it
Shouwa Genroku Rakugo Shinjuu is a masterpiece of storytelling with a ton of metaphors and symbolism, but it's a slow paced drama show so not too popular (although very highly rated)
lupadim t1_jb6jp44 wrote
Because ultimately it's an anime, not a philosophy essay
Evangelion is more entertaining than other series even if it is lacking in philosophical depth
mirh t1_jb2mz3s wrote
Ngl even sword art fucking online had my ass in gear (ok perhaps that was more like about sociology than philosophy, but still).
But I suppose that even 10 implicitly thoughtful conundrums are nothing compared to a cross shining in the sky after a bomb or something...
Professional-Noise80 t1_jbaiqdy wrote
I enjoyed sword art more then Eva (which I found both boring, meaningless and frustrating, but still watched because people said it's one of the best animes ever smh...)
celerym t1_jb2kd2d wrote
That always get brought up about Hideaki Anno, but it’s a red herring.
mirh t1_jb2mbc0 wrote
I mean, I still have respect for the man I guess. Nothing wrong with baiting "history channel" people, and at least he's being honest about it.
rookie_economist t1_jb2eo18 wrote
This. Thus spawns 3 generations of depressed kids who obsessively divulge and analyse each vague symbolism or buzzwords
mirh t1_jb2gm8g wrote
I guess that's better than 3 generations of depressed kids who.. do other more ill-advised activities, though yes.
It's crazy how damn hard apophenia can stick.
thisthinginabag t1_jb52dts wrote
I’m pretty sure he just said that they used Christian iconography because it would be more interesting to a Japanese audience. But I like through telephone his statement has now become "yeah I just threw some shit together idk."
mirh t1_jb587jj wrote
> because it would be more interesting to a Japanese audience
And that's a statement about "appeal", not meaning. Or about form as opposed to substance, if you will.
thisthinginabag t1_jb59md6 wrote
Yeah, exactly. It was a comment about a stylistic choice. In no way does that imply the show didn’t hold some particular meaning for him.
mirh t1_jb6wiv0 wrote
Uhm? Of course the show has a meaning for him. Just like anybody that has even heard about it will have attached some judgement.
But that's not what we were talking about?
If some element was added just exclusively for the purpose of impressing the viewer (as in: without any connection whatsoever with the plot or even just the worldbuilding) then it's meaningless.
I suppose even then it's not physically impossible to discuss how "by chance" a certain theme could still nevertheless be identified... but you can't avoid the elephant in the room that what is being depicted was completely posing.
Meanwhile people in this thread are not only doing that, but they are even starting from the presumption that something must be there, and then from that they work backwards into how it would be configured.
thisthinginabag t1_jb70mi9 wrote
It's not that deep. I'm saying the show does in fact contain themes reinforced through symbolism, plot points, real world references, etc. Like most shows do. It was written to convey certain themes. The Christianity stuff was done for stylistic reasons, but that does not imply that all of the writing was decided the same way. I don't know why you're so hung up on that idea. Literally no one involved has claimed that and its obvious to anyone who's watched the show knows that's not really the case.
mirh t1_jbotckq wrote
> It's not that deep.
Did we even read the same article?
I do know it's not deep at all. Yet there really is this aura of not just "philosophical curiosity" but even "academical relevance".
> Like most shows do.
Most shows have lots of inspirations and references, yes. But that's it then. Fans may then write whatever they want, and perhaps a few of them reach really thoughtful levels.
Yet it's always only NGE that you hear. Like, I get it's also the most popular (for as much as this is kinda a circular explanation) but this is totally despite its shallowness. And wrongness (because jesus H. christ anything that mentions freud should have a disclaimer)
It's almost as if people were working backwards from some kind of need to validate/romanticize/elevate the characters (as opposed to them only being the eventual object of the analysis) if everything and the kitchen sink is good enough to throw at the wall just because they have been named once.
> The Christianity stuff was done for stylistic reasons
I mean, that's seemed to be the topic you were focusing this comments tree on.
vulcanfury12 t1_jb304p7 wrote
It's built upon Rule of Cool. Almost all alternate interpretations are incidental. There's cross-shaped explosions because the creators thought Christian iconography was the bomb.
stoicsilence t1_jb3ipdc wrote
Yeah.
I use NGE as an example of what I call "Shallow Themeing." There is nothing deeper to what you see it's purely there to look cool and add a false sense of mystique.
It's related to the more common "Shallow Proper Nouning" which NGE also does this with all the Judeo-Christian proper nouns.
However I use Roy Batty's death monologue from Bladerunner as the principal example for that cause there more of a history of the fandom going "what does it all mean!?"
poirotketchup t1_jb33p6o wrote
Yup. I wish I had seen it when I was 12 instead of 35.
samsharksworthy t1_jb3rrj4 wrote
Plus it’s not woven in so much as they just make speeches scour their philosophies.
NGEFan t1_jb29hw1 wrote
You wouldn't get it
Spyrith t1_jb2a2g2 wrote
But he's right. The ideas are pretty basic philosophy but they are very well executed in the anime medium.
NGEFan t1_jb2cpr7 wrote
I don't know, anyone can call any piece of literature pretty basic philosophy. One thing I will say in counterpoint is I've seen more in depth discussion of NGE on forum.evageeks.org than I've seen online for most or all of the fiction I've seen read as part of university philosophy classes. But I'm not sure that matters either. If even one person finds the ideas of the first ancestral race more interesting than Meursault or some much deeper fiction than I can imagine, who is anyone to say they are wrong?
MajorTim1100 t1_jb36ss1 wrote
Is the first ancestral race supposed to be philosophy? As a quick google search, it's just a creation myth about how that universe came to be right? Not like a Camus character that involves ideas of absurdism that he also wrote essays on separately?
NGEFan t1_jb38g29 wrote
It's from Neon Genesis Evangelion
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