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MundaneConclusion246 t1_jc2qfr3 wrote

This is a question that’s been weighting on me pretty heavily: supposing all of our fates are predetermined and free will is a mere illusion, is it possible to commit any moral wrong?

Of course we all knew someone at one point or another who uses astrology as an excuse to be a bitch by saying things like “I can’t help being a Pisces” to justify their shitty behavior. This is what raises the question in my mind. If we entertain the notion (and I’m being completely hypothetical here) if our fates are predetermined, and we have limited or no control over who we are or become, then should we be held accountable for our misdeeds?

I’m new to this sub, and philosophy in general, so I don’t know if talking about the Bible is frowned upon, but Christians believe that through Jesus’ crucifixion, all people are forgiven and able to repent of their sins. At the same time they also believe that Judas committed the ultimate mortal sin, and he is in line with the devil for betraying him. Jesus knew that Judas would betray him, as was prophesied, and without his sacrifice (within the faith) no one could be made right with the Lord.

Judas’ fate was predetermined. If this action was predetermined did he have a choice in the matter? So if not, did he sin when he sold out Jesus to the Romans?

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kilkil t1_jd78ej9 wrote

I've pondered this question as well. What I've concluded is that, instead of assigning "blame", "fault", or "responsibility", it's better to simply take a more consequentialist view, and ask: what are the likely outcomes of this person's actions? Should I convince them to do otherwise? Would it lead to an overall better outcome if something were done to stop them from doing it (again)? What should that something be?

By focusing on these questions, we can sidestep the question of who to hold accountable and instead look at what would be the best thing to do overall.

However, what's interesting is that answering that first question, "what are the outcomes", can be very complicated given the chaotic nature of human behaviour ("chaotic" here means "deterministic, but unpredictable in practice"). We have to use rule-of-thumb approximations for this sort of thing, instead of precise calculations. And it turns out that concepts like "accountability", "blame", "fault", and "personal responsibility" are very useful rules of thumb; in effect, when you blame someone for something, you are asserting that their behaviour requires some internal changes, or they'll just do it again. Even if the underlying causes are far outside that person's control, the logic works out the same.

To put it in maybe a more whimsical/poetic way: if we are but the fingers of the hands of Fate, then we cannot be judged for our sins, for they belong to Fate just as we do. But, since Fate doesn't have a mailing address, we'll have to settle for cutting off its fingers as necessary.

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MundaneConclusion246 t1_jc2syr9 wrote

Update: I just learned about fatalism and I guess the whole Judas question has already been asked. Does this idea say anything about moral character though?

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StealUr_Face t1_jc91edv wrote

Watch the movie minority report if you haven’t. There’s people who see the future and stop crimes from occurring. Even though they know the future they are not causing the crime. I think, and I could be wrong, it’s argued that In the same way, God’s knowledge of the future identifies what humans freely choose to do; he doesn’t cause them to do anything.

Another argument I’ve heard is that it’s written in plural not singular form. So God’s warning against Judas betraying Christ is a warning to us all.

If that is your faith

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4n0nym0usggets t1_jc4ot80 wrote

You know, I have also wondered this, if we all have our predetermined behavior or destiny, what about the people we consider with illogical thoughts, for example terraplanists, people who believe in astrology, among others. Do they have a function in the world?

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___fofo___ t1_jcu6n40 wrote

A “moral wrong” really just means an action that leads to unfavorable circumstances, especially in regards to social behaviors. But even non-social behaviors, like masturbation or doing drugs, are considered immoral as they can be unhealthy for the agent. So we’re just saying that some actions tend to have good results and other actions tend to have bad results. This isn’t really affected by the existence or lack of free will. Punishment and guilt still serve their purpose: to regulate behavior.

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