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hononononoh t1_j37q7w0 wrote

Reply to comment by IAI_Admin in Our ability to resist temptation depends on how fragmented one's mind is | On the inconsistencies in one’s mental setup by IAI_Admin

I'm surprised to not yet see the term cognitive dissonance in the comment chain at all, because that's basically what the author of this article means by "fragmentation". It sounds like he's saying that cognitive dissonance is stressful, and stress increases the likelihood of giving into temptation, in an attempt to relieve stress. This seems pretty simple and sensible to me. Cognitive dissonance is really a form of double bind: "I can't (or shouldn't) but I must." And double binds are the wellspring of stress, according to every good psychologist I've spoken with. They're not entirely avoidable, but they can be kept to a tolerable minimum.

I'm pretty sure this is why the Serenity Prayer is so central to the Twelve Step programs — it's an attempt to reduce the cognitive dissonance and double binds that tend to underly addiction in the first place.

I cite the above with much trepidation, because I'm well aware of how despicable the Twelve Step programs are to the majority of Redditors. I'm not saying I necessarily endorse them. I think they work for some people in some situations, but definitely not all. I'm just making a point about the rationale behind one of their most popular mantras.

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FrozenDelta3 t1_j38j31p wrote

How one came to not have an “all in” mentality or pattern of behavior in response to their own thoughts and feelings is very relevant to this topic. Self-conditioning a new pattern of behavior in response to stimuli and then practicing it is how people can gain or lose mentalities.

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ImOutOfNamesNow t1_j3acf4u wrote

People living in cognitive dissonance are depressed, bipolar

The side effect of cognitive dissonance is depression.

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hononononoh t1_j3ai1dt wrote

Yep. If there’s one line of speech that sums up what depression feels like, it’s “There is nothing I can do.”

Source: Am a physician and have suffered from depression

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tgifmondays t1_j3aod89 wrote

I didn’t realize people found 12 step programs “despicable” I understand they’re not for everyone but they have literally saved my life and the lives of people I love.

I think the early AA stuff unintentionally hit on a lot of what is only now being understood.

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hononononoh t1_j3bto2m wrote

Maybe it’s just the subs I subscribe to, but I can barely allude to the Twelve Step programs without starting a circlejerk about how appalling ineffective, culty, and offensive to folks’ atheist sensibilities all these programs are. I mean yeah, they’re not for everyone. Under no circumstances should anyone be mandated or court-ordered to attend one. But there are people who owe their successful recovery to them, for some people they are effective, and there’s not a lot to lose by giving them a try.

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tgifmondays t1_j3dbj97 wrote

Yeah. I have been a lifelong atheist and in my opinion anyone unwilling to consider a program because of that is more or less looking for an excuse. This book was written a long time ago and even then the language is “I higher power of YOUR understanding” as well as there being a chapter for agnostics. It’s actually one of the most important chapters.

But I suppose it all depends on the groups in your area. The meetings I attend are very open to all ideas and there are specific atheist meetings if you prefer

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hononononoh t1_j3du8jp wrote

And I’m exactly the opposite — a lifelong theist, who is skeptical that the Twelve Step programs should be the gold standard, let alone the be-all-end-all, of addiction recovery. And nevertheless, you and I more or less agree on this matter, lol. Way too much black-and-white thinking and bandwagon side-taking these days, and it’s frankly refreshing to find people and spaces where that’s not the case. All the best to you this new year, dude. ❤️

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tgifmondays t1_j3emb32 wrote

All the best to you as well. I absolutely agree it should not be considered the end all be all. It’s a part of my recovery and not the entirety of it. There are always going to be book thumpers that scoff at others, they’re not helpful

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kenmorechalfant t1_j3cefx7 wrote

As the other reply said, as an atheist, I find the "higher power" part of it to be an insult to my intelligence. But I can just ignore that and I think the rest of the program is good.

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tgifmondays t1_j3db61i wrote

Yeah I mean I think it was understood that a literal Christian god would be a turn off which is why there’s a chapter specifically for agnostics. I can get down with “I higher power of your understanding”. It just does not bother me personally in that language

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SchemataObscura t1_j3ail8l wrote

I think that twelve step programs can be a powerful tool for a person seeking to change their mind, reframe a worldview and disrupt problematic behaviors. It is not perfect, it certainly can be problematic for some people and is generally oozing with cringe, especially if you have not personally known an addict.

I like your assessment of the serenity prayer and i think the power of some of the common mottos are underestimated from a psychological perspective.

Related to the post the phrase Just for Today similarly helps resisting temptation by setting a smaller obtainable goal 'i don't have to quit forever, just for today' which relieves a lot of pressure but it also has another effect, a sort of psychological trick in that every day is 'today'.

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[deleted] t1_j3bbkmk wrote

There is contradiction between the super egoic demand to moderate, and the super egoic demand to enjoy perfectly at all times.

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Slinky9677 t1_j3t4a4u wrote

Your main point is excellent but it is your aside regarding twelve step programs that grabbed my interest. My father suffered from alcoholism and has been sober now for close to 25 years. I believe AA played an important role in his recovery. HOWEVER, I do agree with some commenters that the process is "culty" and "weird" to an outsider having experienced a few meetings in person in support of my dad (i.e. receiving his 5 year token).

All that said, my biggest issue related to how the "sponsor" relationship worked. The process for getting a sponsor seemed to be some form of meritocracy based on the length of time a person had been sober. The clear assumption was the longer you had been sober, the better a sponsor you could be to persons new to the program.

The problem with this logic is that Alcoholics have many personal problems that stem from their addiction to alcohol. Stopping the drinking is simply a first "Step" (see what I did there?) in putting your life back together. The sponsor seemed great on the drinking part but in my dad's case, his sponsors became a bit of a hideously underqualified life coach as well. For dad, his ability to filter the sponsor's good advice received regarding his drinking habits from the poor advice he received on how to handle problems with his marriage, professional career, and finanical issues was non-existent. I can't speak for anyone else, but this devotion my father had to his sponsor over anyone else in his life was one of the primary reasons why I came to despise the program over time.

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