Lost_Vegetable887 t1_iuf64lh wrote
Reply to comment by shukufuku in Conscious Reality Is Only a Memory of Unconscious Actions, Scientists Propose In Radical New Theory by mossadnik
It helps us to rationalize and therefore explain our actions to others. Which is hugely important for us as a social species. Basically we act first unconsciouly, then come up with the reasons for why we acted that way, then convince others of our reasons while believing ourselves that these were truly our motivations.
Puck85 t1_iuf71ve wrote
ok, that's your theory. I can't say it applies to other apparently-conscious things, like crows or dogs, since they aren't social in the ways humans are, so i'm not satisfied with your approach because it doesn't address other forms of consciousness, and it even gets things backwards, because how can unconscious complicated social structures develop anyway?
actually reading the article provides some insight:
“Our theory of consciousness rejects the idea that consciousness initially evolved in order to allow us to make sense of the world and act accordingly, and then, at some later point, episodic memory developed to store such conscious representations,” Budson and his colleagues said in the study. “Our theory is that consciousness developed with the evolution of episodic memory simply—and powerfully—to enable the phenomena of remembering.”
“We posit further that consciousness was subsequently co-opted to produce other functions that are not directly relevant to memory per se, such as problem-solving, abstract thinking, and language,” the team noted. “We suggest that this theory is compatible with many phenomena, such as the slow speed and the after-the-fact order of consciousness, that cannot be explained well by other theories. We believe that our theory may have profound implications for understanding intentional action and consciousness in general.”
Please read the article folks. It's interesting.
Thebitterestballen t1_iufdh9u wrote
It makes total sense from a development point of view.
For example my dogs have excellent memory of objects, people, places and where to find things, because they need it. I wouldn't say they do much abstract thinking or self reflection... The need to evolve memory comes before problem solving.
On the other hand, this theory implies every animal that is capable of memory is also conscious. So whether they are self aware or not they experience events as they happen in much the same way that we do.
Puck85 t1_iufedsr wrote
it's exhausting that threads about this type of research devolve into everyone's personal thoughts.
The article involves experts in this field. Let's talk about them instead of your thoughts.
Tha_Daahkness t1_iufy4ws wrote
Sir, this is reddit.
We don't read the articles.
badjokemonday t1_iug6kyl wrote
Is this Kenneth from 30 Rock?
FourAM t1_iugjip4 wrote
He’s using an analogy to illustrate what the article is stating, that’s not “personal thoughts” it’s a discussion of the topic.
Good lord this sub is riddled with folks not even trying to understand.
[deleted] t1_iufiiwg wrote
[removed]
Monti_r t1_iui8aew wrote
We act first unconsciously? What about when I spend 15 minutes thinking about what move to make in chess. Am I already done with my move but spending 15 minutes to rationalize it?
Lost_Vegetable887 t1_iui9vlr wrote
No, but your brain will have decided on the next move a short time before you became consciously aware of it.
While you are weighing different options and strategies for your next move, at some point you will reach a critical decision threshold - when you feel like you accumulated sufficient evidence for a certain move to give the "go" signal. You will reach this point first unconsciously, then you will consciously rationalize to yourself why you make your decision now, after the 15 mins, and not for instance after 14 or 16 minutes.
Think about it, when you decide on your next move, what made you so certain about that move right then? What caused you to go over the tipping point from contemplation to action? Most people will mention that at some point they just "know" they are ready.
Monti_r t1_iuib2am wrote
Except I don’t make a move until it’s rational and logically (hopefully) sound. If I can’t logic my way to a move it is never made and thus a decision is not reached. Once I make a move the clock stops I don’t then think about why I made that move over other moves I am now thinking of future moves. Are you saying that I reached that decision in say 5 minutes then took ten minutes to rationalize? Because I have regularly changed my mind on what piece I’m even going to move while going through the logic of the move.
Lost_Vegetable887 t1_iuj41e4 wrote
You'd probably agree there is almost always more than one logical / rational next step to consider, right? Decision making in chess is about weighing different probabilities, long-term outcomes etc. How do you decide that you've reached the most sound conclusion? How do you reach a conclusion at all?
The unconscious part of that decision-making process lies in the moment just before you determine you've made your most sound decision. While you were circling through different options, at some point your unconscious brain decided it knew enough, and converged on a decision. This choice has been shown to take place fractions before you become consciously aware of the choice. If a neuroscientist were reading out your brain signaling while you were playing chess, they would know you've reached a decision right before you yourself would know you'd reached a decision.
ScriptM t1_iuiw9kr wrote
You and some others are contradictory here. Who rationalizes what?
If brain is just a matter interacting and produces output based on computations inside itself, who rationalizes that afterwards?
There is no one out there. It is still the same dead matter interacting and nothing else. Lifeless atoms do not need to explain anything.
tdmoney t1_iugd6fx wrote
Maybe I’m misunderstanding the premise… but I decide what I’m going to do. I’m going to go to the store and buy x,y,z… so that later I can make dinner.
I might not choose every step I take, or how exactly I do it… but I do make the decisons.
To me this is an overly complicated and incorrect way to view “muscle memory”…. When I’m learning how to do a new thing, I’m “in the moment” making micro decisions about how to complete whatever task. To me that’s consciousness.
JCPRuckus t1_iugp8am wrote
>Maybe I’m misunderstanding the premise… but I decide what I’m going to do. I’m going to go to the store and buy x,y,z… so that later I can make dinner.
No, your subconscious polls your body to see what nutrients (or addictive foodstuffs) it's lacking, gets back the report, decides lasagna would fit the bill, and says, "I want lasagna". Then you become conscious of that message and fill in some other explanation for why it's worth it to go to the store and get ingredients for lasagna. Your conscious choice is an illusion. It's actually just the process of you creating an ex post facto rationilazation for doing the thing your subconscious told you to do.
Extension-Ad-2760 t1_iuhizy7 wrote
But then... how does anyone ever go on a diet? I think that is a massive hole in this theory. We don't always follow our body's instructions.
LunarGiantNeil t1_iuhxnj9 wrote
You are correct. There are a lot of people misinterpreting where abstract thinking and problem solving takes place in the cognitive chain.
You're also not a purely "rational actor" who makes choices devoid of underlying impulses, of course. There's an interplay between the two.
Your brain makes decisions bureaucratically.
JCPRuckus t1_iuhwcgf wrote
>But then... how does anyone ever go on a diet? I think that is a massive hole in this theory. We don't always follow our body's instructions.
Your subconscious takes what you know about the dangers of obesity, or your lack of dating success, or the amount of stress that your mother calling you fat causes you, and decides that eating less would actually be better for whichever of those reasons. Then it tells says, "We're eating less for a while", and again, your conscious mind tries to guess why it got this order and come up with an explanation of why... I didn't say that we always follow our bodies' instructions. It was just one purposefully simple example.
Think of the subconscious as upper management and the conscious mind as the worker on the shop floor. Except the worker, for their own sanity, has to believe that management is competent. So directions come down from on high, and even though the worker has no understanding of what went into the deliberation process, they piece together the best explanation they can from what they have available.
Basically, it's exactly what you do any other time you have incomplete information. What do you genuinely know about what Pitun thought before he invaded Ukraine? Basically nothing. But if you have any interest in the story, you probably immediately had some strong guesses at what you thought he must be thinking. Well, it's exactly like that except you think you're making the decision, so you don't think your guesses about the real motivations are guesses.
ScriptM t1_iuiw2a4 wrote
You and some others are contradictory here. Who rationalizes what?
If brain is just a matter interacting and produces output based on computations inside itself, who rationalizes that afterwards?
There is no one out there. It is still the same dead matter interacting and nothing else. Lifeless atoms do not need to explain anything.
JCPRuckus t1_iujy3w6 wrote
>You and some others are contradictory here. Who rationalizes what?
>If brain is just a matter interacting and produces output based on computations inside itself, who rationalizes that afterwards?
>There is no one out there. It is still the same dead matter interacting and nothing else. Lifeless atoms do not need to explain anything.
There is nothing contradictory here at all. If you want to insist that the conscious self is also an illusion, then that only makes it necessary that conscious choice be an illusion.
Our brains developed extra capacities that allowed us to be able to store new and complex, even second hand, experiential information to supplement our inborn instincts for processing during the subconscious decision process. Consciousness seems to be an emergent property of this additional storage and computational hardware. Apparently it tends to increase survivability, otherwise the pre-conscious step in human evolution would have won out.
Tisk_Jockey t1_iuggc4f wrote
What they are saying is your brain is making all the decisions, the part that is conscious of it gets all of the thoughts from the brain with a micro tone delay and just assumes it is the one driving the boat not just Dwight with a fake wheel.
tornpentacle t1_iugg8hk wrote
All those decisions are determined by previous conditions and experiences. "You" do not make decisions. "You" are a feedback loop. The conscious experience is the joining together in the brain of various sensory experiences...it also ignores the vast majority of sensory input. For the record, neurons fire in a deterministic manner.
ScriptM t1_iuiw6k9 wrote
You and some others are contradictory here. Who rationalizes what?
If brain is just a matter interacting and produces output based on computations inside itself, who rationalizes that afterwards?
There is no one out there. It is still the same dead matter interacting and nothing else. Lifeless atoms do not need to explain anything.
Viewing a single comment thread. View all comments