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sudormrf7 t1_iv9sv2a wrote

Reply to comment by Mad_Chemist_ in Psychiatric Diagnoses Among Transgender and Gender Diverse Patients Compared to Cisgender Patients by Frougnasse

There are probably three phenomenons at once, all usually championed by different people with different political agendas:

  1. Health professionals that try to protect the patient from regret and/or mistreatment, thereby over diagnosing any mental problems that is remotely possible. Most persons have some weaknesses in their personality, but at a sub-clinical level.
  2. Gender dysphoria tends to make your life hard. Said weaknesses might then develop further or suddenly become a problem.
  3. Gender dysphoria is a deviation from the neurological norm. In some cases there might be an underlying factor that caused both a deviating gender identity and some other neurological condition.

But I strongly find it not probable that a mental disorder causes gender dysphoria. In the same way that it doesn't cause homosexuality. Most of us have a gender identity disposition that we're born with that blooms in our early childhood. That is completely normal as long at it agrees with your physical sex. In a well developed humane society, a deviating gender identity should be constructively taken care of. (e.g. gender transition and acceptance from the rest of society.)

The science is not complete on the etiology, but we know there is a genetic link to the genes linked to the degree of feminization and masculinization (e.g. https://academic.oup.com/jcem/article/104/2/390/5104458?login=false). If you do a quick google scholar search, you will see that there is a lot of really good arguments for that it's biologically linked. Genetic, hormonal and environmental during the fetal stage of development (when your mother was pregnant.) In other words, with today's science our best conjecture is that gender dysphoria is caused by a brain born with a gender identity disposition deviating from birth sex.

Personally, I wouldn't be surprised if the truth includes a little bit of all of these three explanations. We will probably find that there are several complex biological paths to gender dysphoria, e.g. combinations of hormones during the fetal stage, genetics, teratogens (toxic chemicals) etc.

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KarmicComic12334 t1_ivckc6w wrote

A fourth possibility, that gender nonconforming people are more likely to be sent to speak with a mental health professional and that people who do not go to visit mental health professionals are rarely diagnosed. People can and do go through their whole lives with BPD and PTSD without anyone around them noticing or caring, but gender dysphoria presents as difficult to ignore.

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sudormrf7 t1_ive7s41 wrote

Yes, that is true! Secondly, it's hard to control for statistically since patients with gender dysphoria are usually investigated much deeper.

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ill_effexor t1_ivbpmr8 wrote

>1. Health professionals that try to protect the patient from regret and/or mistreatment, thereby over diagnosing any mental problems that is remotely possible. Most persons have some weaknesses in their personality, but at a sub-clinical level.

  1. Gender dysphoria tends to make your life hard. Said weaknesses might then develop further or suddenly become a problem.

Isn't this here problematic. Instead of protecting people from their problems and issues shouldn't we be teaching them copeing methods.

I understand not everyone can be treated this way alone but shouldn't we avoid diagnosis as a crutch?

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sudormrf7 t1_ivbuma6 wrote

Yes, I consider such frivolous diagnosing to be damaging. I've witnessed it myself (no further comment).

Still, identifying and helping the individual challenges of the patient is a necessity considering the amount of discrimination in today's society. You need to be a very well balanced and strong individual to thrive in that situation, if not barely survive. At least in my country, this is how it's supposed to happen.

Hopefully, when society matures less intervention will be necessary.

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Ok_Letter_9284 t1_iv9xtr8 wrote

I appreciate the nuanced presentation but I take issue with your conclusion. Gender dysphoria only exists because of the existence of gender ROLES.

A man wearing a dress has nothing to do with mental heath, but is instead a recognition that socially constructed gender roles are dumb.

This is VERY different than the claim that you are in the wrong gender. Not matching socially constructed gender roles would yield a wide variety of behqviors, NOT exclusively the OPPOSITE genders’ behaviors.

Do you see my point? A rejection of gender roles is logical. But that would almost NEVER lead to embracing a different gender role!

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nfgrawker t1_iva46eb wrote

If the trans movement had anything to do with gender roles then surgery and hormones wouldn't be the recommended treatment. They are purely physical.

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Dr_seven t1_ivb0l3x wrote

I think it's a bit more nuanced than that- for example, the studies showing benefits for kids who socially transition only, with no medication, etc. If it was purely a "physical" situation, that wouldn't make a difference.

Speaking for myself, my personal case is certainly more physical than mental- I generally couldn't give a toss what people label me as in public, and don't generally need or request much in the way of validation. However, I'm in the minority, for a lot of folks it makes a real positive impact. I have ASD, though, so this pattern runs throughout most of my life in general, making it hard to compare my experience to the hypothetical average. I'm very rarely subject to any emotional impact from anything people outside my close circles do or say- neurotypical people in general are the opposite, often quite exquisitely attuned to others.

If I had to speculate, it would be that it's both a physical issue (tied to certain physical signs of various hormone shifts in utero) as well as a complex of mental symptoms that depends on environment, family upbringing, and broader culture. I've met some people who are more like me- it's about the physical symptoms and access to medication makes the pain recede. But, there are plenty of people for whom social validation is clearly a major component. This may simply correlate with measures of self-security or other vagaries of personality.

Edit: there's also the somewhat interesting situations wherein men receiving certain treatments for their prostate cancer develop gender dysphoria even though they are being treated as men still. Between social forces and physical factors, it seems that the physical factors win out, but that doesn't make them unimportant, just secondary.

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sudormrf7 t1_iva38t6 wrote

Human emotion is seldom logical, even if one can find an evolutionary reason for their existence. They are only rules of thumb than on an average have increased fitness in a world much different from our own. What is well known is that most of us are born with a gender identity that long-term is emotionally very costly for us to go against. (See the result of tragic surgical experiments on intersex children.)

Our brain is optimized to find patterns. In a society were only women wear skirts, an individual with a completely masculine identity will not want to wear one. Of course a skirt has nothing innate feminine about it, but in that culture it does.

In a hypothetical society were the only difference between men and women was our bodies, gender dysphoria would still exist. But it would probably be more focused on physical differences.

My pet theory is that gender identity is primed by primitive signals, e.g. pheromones (e.g. https://academic.oup.com/cercor/article/18/8/1900/285954?login=false for corroborating experimental findings). During our childhood our neocortex couples that to the patterns in the world we find. That pattern can change depending on society and circumstances.

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uninstallIE t1_ivcv1pv wrote

>Gender dysphoria only exists because of the existence of gender ROLES.

This is not a commonly supported belief. Transgender people often feel dysphoria about the specific physical anatomical structures of their body

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Ok_Letter_9284 t1_iveebzn wrote

So you admit its a mental health issue

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uninstallIE t1_ivexyfy wrote

According to the WHO it is a physical sexual health condition. But even if it were mental health instead, that doesn't change the treatment plan

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Ok_Letter_9284 t1_ivfe6gv wrote

Doesnt change the treatment plan?! You can’t be serious. We don’t change reality to better suit schizophrenia. Or ask that society play along.

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uninstallIE t1_ivfeq9j wrote

So, to be clear, your treatment plan for transgender individuals is

  1. Throw out all the effective treatments that currently work and save their lives

  2. Abuse them harder and prevent them from living their lives until they kill themselves

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Ok_Letter_9284 t1_ivffsxp wrote

Really? Strawman argument much?

Look. If ppl are being fired from their jobs or assaulted, we should deal with that criminally. I’m all for that. I don’t support bullying, violence, or oppression.

But that’s just not what Ive seen from the trans community. The loudest Ive heard them is over Dave Chappell and Lia Thompson.

Contrast that to the BLM movement where ppl are literally being beaten and murdered.

Gays actually DID go through that stuff. But trans using the same playbook as the gays is inappropriate because the issues arent nearly the same.

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uninstallIE t1_ivft6bq wrote

Square this statement

>You can’t be serious. We don’t change reality to better suit schizophrenia. Or ask that society play along.

With supporting the current standards of care for trans people in medicine.

To be clear, to all your delusional ramblings or whatever, trans people do face all those forms of discrimination including police harassment and abuse, beatings and murders, etc etc. So we don't need to talk about the fact that you only care about it when a famous person is criticized for demonizing them

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Ok_Letter_9284 t1_ivjadv2 wrote

To be clear, your counter argument is “nuh uh”. K

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uninstallIE t1_ivjdttd wrote

We aren't changing the topic here from the medical advice, of which my source is the world health organization and yours is the Bible.

I'm not arguing with you about your unsourced opinions on the rates of discrimination when you could just google it and find to you're wrong

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Ok_Letter_9284 t1_ivje0nc wrote

Drilling holes in heads was once the pinnacle of medicine. All the literature agreed.

As someone who’s spent years in the field, we ain’t that good at it yet.

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uninstallIE t1_ivjfce6 wrote

Drilling holes in heads is still a medical practice for certain conditions, and is still the best treatment for those conditions.

So once again are you going to say what treatment you think trans people should receive or are you going to dance around it like an asshole

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