DIWhy-not t1_j0duhvg wrote
Long time food service (in NYC) vet here, including ethnically Asian restaurants.
Sketchy strip-mall Chinese takeout spots aside, there are also certain culinary techniques found in traditional Chinese or Thai cooking that can run afoul of DOH regulations despite not actually being unhealthy or dangerous in any capacity to the customer. Certain wood-fire cooking techniques, fermentation, etc for instance.
But keep in mind that there are plenty of western techniques that are equally as “bad” in the eyes of the DOH. For instance, literally every “house cured xyz” is technically illegal in NYC. I’ve worked in Michelin rated places where the very first thing the chef de cuisine does when DOH walks in is rush to the walk-in or dry stock to shove those house cured charcuteries and air aged cheeses into a sack and toss them into the trunk of their car. There are two VERY famous, multiple Michelin star holding restaurants in midtown Manhattan that I know from seeing with my own eyes have studio apartments rented next door that look like Dexter kill-rooms full of curing meat.
The world renowned named-after-an-address Manhattan establishment can afford to do that to avoid strikes on a DOH report (because the violation isn’t on premise). The traditional Thai start-up restaurant in Crown Heights doesn’t have the resources to do the same to hide their traditionally (and completely safely) home-fermented sausages.
Again, I’m not talking about gnarly hole-in-the-wall roach-infested takeout spots. If there’s been a crackdown on those, it’s probably a good thing for generally public safety. But I’d be interested to see the breakdown of violations. NYCs department of health is notoriously overreaching in terms of what is and isn’t a public health concern (ie if there’s a hand washing sink the correct number of feet from a cook station, with soap, but it doesn’t have paper towels stocked, it’s deemed an unusable sink and points are deducted. Go figure). And that overreach is absolutely a source of income for the city in terms of DOH fines. But they do make damn sure that New York is an, overall, incredibly safe place to eat.
Spacepirateroberts t1_j0e5fmv wrote
Our local (not NYC) health dept doesn't do fines instead viewing the job as educational and the only 'stick' they wield is to close a restaurant with serious violations.
DIWhy-not t1_j0e7b3h wrote
NYC went hardcore with it I believe under Bloomberg when a video of rats crawling all over a closed restraint that someone shot through the windows went viral on national news.
It’s positive and negative, honestly. I mean New York is a HUGE, densely populated, and objectively filthy city with a massive rat and roach problem. Even having been on the wrong end of brutal DOH violations and fines, and even though I think a lot of their rules are absurd and are clearly there to milk money, I think their hardline stance is a net positive.
cincobarrio t1_j0e8aik wrote
Wow yeah, the famous Taco Bell rats, which would go on to be referenced in a beastie boys song. I believe the letter grading system got started right after that.
Spacepirateroberts t1_j0ebqma wrote
That honestly makes a lot of sense, a dirty restaurant here could maaaaaybe get 50-100 people sick in a day. In huge cities being way more stringent makes sense as a whole lot more people can be affected.
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KingFucboi t1_j0f3abt wrote
Keep in mind there are good reasons the health department doesn’t trust places to ferment and age their own products.
“Perfectly safe” is not how I would describe apartment cured meat.
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HermitGardner t1_j0ggpik wrote
I think your example of house cured meats is really obscure …. 30 years food service, owned my own restaurant in Brooklyn 10 years, EC multiple places and Sous, etc. The DOH info is public record so you can look that up whenever you want. The health department is literally REQUIRED to find something wrong. There is always something. But they never write citations for everything. If they did, the NYC industry would just shut down. Look, I love Chinatown. But it’s pretty gross dude. I don’t think that these fines are based on traditional techniques, I think they’re based on regular fines mostly cleanliness. I mean look, we work 12/14 hour days. Those guys work 18 hours every single day 7 days a week 365. Without mats, often in sandals, sleep in cramped bunks. They are not scrubbing the hood down or cleaning the fryer regularly. And there is ALWAYS food, not just dry goods and produce, like meat and fish- out on the sidewalk. I think that in comparison to the rest of the restaurant culture in NYC they are really substandard.
doglessinseattle t1_j0ep51k wrote
Super interesting. Thanks for your comment.
I visited Ireland a decade ago and iirc every restaurant window had a sign/sticker for a hotline you were supposed to call if you ate there and had gastrointestinal distress later. I really wish health departments crowdsourced data in that way.
minuialear t1_j0hovac wrote
There are way too many people in NYC for such a system to be feasible by a government agency.
At best maybe an app that just marks a map where people report getting sick or something could be feasible, but the city probably isn't the best organization to make such an app, and they probably don't have the money to keep it going anyway
CatOfGrey t1_j0e2ji5 wrote
I'm curious - could there be a relationship with recent immigrants owning restaurants?
I'm thinking about Los Angeles, where a random taco shop might be 3rd generation, but the Chinese food place is more likely to be owned by someone whose family arrived in 2010, so they aren't 'raised with US practices' like different demographic groups.
A long term solution might be education of these folks to prevent problems.
paceminterris t1_j0fs2l4 wrote
How come, when it comes to light that Asian restaurants are being disproportionately handed bad health inspections - everyone always jumps on blaming Asians or assuming that the inspections are objective - but when it is brought up that black people are disproportionately arrested, the whole world jumps to the conclusion that it is ONLY because police are racist and that is is ABSOLUTELY UNTRUE that black people might, in fact, commit more crimes?
Typical Reddit racism. Americans recognize the mistreatment of non-Asian (black, hispanic, TQIA++) minorities, yet gaslight Asians for the racism they face and refuse to acknowledge that Asians are the last minority all Americans can discriminate against and still be accepted.
luciensadi t1_j0gr0is wrote
I don’t think I’ve seen the term TQIA++ before, what does it stand for in your context here?
Lutra_Lovegood t1_j0hgich wrote
I'm guessing Trans Queer Intersex Aro/Ace
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TheSinningRobot t1_j0guluw wrote
What an unbalanced argument.
One of those statements is simply saying that one culture has some differences in how they prepare food. The other statement is saying, this group of people is more likely to commit crimes because of the color of their skin. If you believe those two statements are the same type of discrimination, you're delusional.
Not to mention the fact, that the difference being pointed out here is about Chinese people coming here from a completely different culture, versus the culture of a group of people who have been here since the birth of the nation.
CatOfGrey t1_j0i376o wrote
>How come, when it comes to light that Asian restaurants are being disproportionately handed bad health inspections - everyone always jumps on blaming Asians or assuming that the inspections are objective
If you look at my comment, I've answered your question. More specifically, I've asked a question of someone with expertise.
My hypothesis: it's not a race issue, it's an issue of recent immigration. Restaurant owners that recently immigrated may be less informed of specific health codes, and practice as they have learned. So when different populations have different immigration histories, it's not a race issue, but something else!
That said, you'll notice that the intent of my question is actually to solve this issue, not put restaurant owners out of business.
minuialear t1_j0hrjbh wrote
Ignoring how patently absurd most of your comment is, I don't think people are trying to "blame" Asians. I see people wondering if specific circumstances they've observed with Asian restaurants in their area (circumstances which aren't even objectively negative) are causing the disproportionate citations. Wondering if Asian immigrants may be disproportionately targeted because their traditional cooking methods may not comport with NY rules is hardly blaming Asians or arguing that the rules are fair. Nor is pointing out that other restaurants with more wealth have the means to skirt around the same regulations. It's simply identifying a potential reason for the disproportionate treatment that deserves further attention.
If this IS the reason why Asian restaurants get cited the most, for example, then it seems like maybe NYC needs to reconsider how it evaluates cooking practices or needs to evaluate restaurants in a way that would catch the Michelin star restaurant who cures its meat next door, in addition to the mom and pop restaurant that doesn't have the means to hide their meats.
Blaming Asians would be saying things like "Well yeah immigrants don't clean their restaurants so this tracks"/"Yeah I'm not familiar with these completely benign practices and therefore agree they're gross and should be banned"/equally racist statements
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Lutra_Lovegood t1_j0fye41 wrote
> the Chinese food place is more likely to be owned by someone whose family arrived in 2010
What's your source?
CatOfGrey t1_j0hjdu6 wrote
Living in San Gabriel. It's a dominantly Asian area, surrounded by dominantly Latino areas. 20+ meals a year out of restaurants where the owners and staff service almost zero White people.
It's not a scientific survey. It's also not without basis.
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Maxfunky t1_j0f5bub wrote
It's not calling someone "stupid" too suggest that people who come from another country may not be familiar with the food safety standards here. It's not as if those standards are universal. It is indeed the case that often immigrants don't know that some of their traditional practices won't be acceptable under their local food code.
CatOfGrey t1_j0eowcl wrote
I'm asking a question of someone who seems to have more experience. Not making any sort of judgement.
The intent is to figure out the best way to serve the public. Regulations are a common way that immigrants get screwed, and I would like to prevent that.
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CartmansEvilTwin t1_j0f2hka wrote
I'm just saying that thinking this is racist is uneducated (or even stupid) on multiple levels.
Maybe read the definition of racism again?
AadamAtomic t1_j0f30c0 wrote
>I'm just saying that thinking this is racist is uneducated (or even stupid) on multiple levels.
calling Immigrants stupid, and suggesting that they need education camps like Canada, U.S, and the british empire did to natives and black people, is indeed a racist thing to say.
MolassesFast t1_j0f8d13 wrote
Show me in their comment were they said either of those things.
thefi3nd t1_j0f8mgq wrote
Why are you forcing 'camps'? Why not something realistic like a short online Udemy-style course in order to get a restaurant license?
Help to educate people that don't have experience with local food regulations so that they don't get fined? Must be racist!
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goopsnice t1_j0fida5 wrote
I’m not saying I’d make the same comment but you’re projecting so much onto what they’re saying.
Asking if people don’t know American regulations because they’ve recently moved to America and saying if so it would be good to inform them of regulations is a pretty benign take. I don’t think they worded it great to be fair but god damn, you’re making a mountain out of a mole hill talking about colonial education camps.
OpossomMyPossom t1_j0eirch wrote
Ya health departments don't like fermentation. Kinda stupid. Just a warning like raw meat.
Maxfunky t1_j0f4xjv wrote
You just need a HACCP plan in most places. I mean, demonstrate that you know what you're doing cause botulism is kind of a big deal. It's really not a high bar but people don't like paper work . . .
OpossomMyPossom t1_j0gpjql wrote
That's not the same everywhere. Where I live you need an entirely separate kitchen.
Maxfunky t1_j0gttnd wrote
That would be a requirement if you want to do wholesale. Like, you want to put kimchi in jars with labels and sell it. If you were just serving house-made kimchi (like on a plate) I doubt that would be a requirement. And yes, it does vary from place to place, but this is likely the most common way to do it.
Twerp129 t1_j0gakp5 wrote
2001-2017 there were 20 cases of botulism from commercially prepared food, the vast majority were homeade foods.
https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fmicb.2021.713101/full
Maxfunky t1_j0glldt wrote
From the perspective of your local health department, the difference between something that's homemade versus something that's commercially prepared is whether or not you have submitted your HAACP plan. It's very possible to be served something at a restaurant that would be considered "homemade".
derefr t1_j0fha4d wrote
> The world renowned named-after-an-address Manhattan establishment can afford to do that to avoid strikes on a DOH report (because the violation isn’t on premise). The traditional Thai start-up restaurant in Crown Heights doesn’t have the resources to do the same to hide their traditionally (and completely safely) home-fermented sausages.
Sounds like an opportunity to build some sort of culinary co-op meat curing warehouse (probably out in Queens.)
AppealDouble t1_j0hqnfe wrote
If employees have to dry their wet hands on their clothes or keep them damp (more efficient germ transfer) then that nearly defeats the point of washing your hands. It’s not an overreach to say the employer has not provided an adequate hand washing station.
Fryceratops t1_j0he1yi wrote
And some of those write ups are for things like not having a Serve Safe certified staff member
Temporary_Draw_4708 t1_j0erfox wrote
Are you sure those restaurants with the studios weren’t actually serving human meat?
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GiannisToTheWariors t1_j0f7cj3 wrote
My girl once saw a roach walking across the chow mein in a hole in the wall spot. She told the server. The server saw it, took the serving tongs and mixed the roach into the chow mein and smiled back at her.
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