Welcome to r/science! This is a heavily moderated subreddit in order to keep the discussion on science. However, we recognize that many people want to discuss how they feel the research relates to their own personal lives, so to give people a space to do that, personal anecdotes are allowed as responses to this comment. Any anecdotal comments elsewhere in the discussion will be removed and our normal comment rules apply to all other comments.

I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.

Hi r/science, jumping on to share this research led by UNSW PhD Candidate, Dr Matthew Lennon MD in collaboration with researchers from the University of Oxford and the University of Exeter.

The team found that people who experienced three or more concussions had worse cognitive function, significantly worse concentration and a reduced ability to complete complex tasks.

This is the largest study to explore the cognitive effects of concussion, or traumatic brain injury to date.

Here’s a link to the full study in the Journal of Neurotrauma, if you’d like to take a look: https://www.liebertpub.com/doi/10.1089/neu.2022.0360

TBIs are the main focus of my wife's research. I just shared it with her. Thank you for posting!

So brain damage can cause the brain to not work well later on?

[removed]

[removed]

[removed]

I thought we already knew this

Can you ask her if coughing REALLY HARD uncontrollably 20-30 times a day can give me brain damage.???

I'm 49 and had nine concussions, 3 moderate and 6 mild.

Fortunately I was wearing a helmet for all, (but one), of them otherwise I'm might not be writing this comment.

Studies like this are good for considering what might happen if I live a long life. Thanks to the OP for sharing.

[removed]

Why is it that every post on r/science has at least one snarky comment like this from someone who probably didn't bother opening the article?

[removed]

You do know you are on reddit right?

[removed]

[removed]

We did but to quote the OP...

>This is the largest study to explore the cognitive effects of concussion, or traumatic brain injury to date.

We know it from just seeing football players or boxers that have issues in later life but this is an actual study into it.

Yet we ignore how much of that happens in professional sports.

Here's the original research:

https://www.liebertpub.com/doi/10.1089/neu.2022.0360

Anyone who needed to read a study to reach that conculsion probably had multiple concussions.

[deleted]

The dabs just before the cough is what I’d be more worried about.

And I can guarantee none of the users making the same tired comment even read the article, let alone the study included.

[removed]

It's the internet.. someone will try to get imaginary points for being "witty" no matter what.

Anyone with common sense knew this. But if you're gonna draw fire from the NFL lawyers... You better have some science to back it up.

[removed]

Me signing up for study: please put me in the control group… please put me in the control group

[removed]

[removed]

As usual redditors miss the point of research into what they perceive as "common sense" hypotheses. Very often common sense turns out to be wrong, albeit not in this case. Studies like this are necessary to confirm what is predicted to be true and to measure just how strong the suspected association is. It's particularly important to accumulate such evidence considering there are powerful interests in sport that want to deny and minimize the association between concussions and worsened brain function or CTE.

Lolololololololololol. No kidding.

[removed]

[removed]

[removed]

That's what she said.

[removed]

Oh no, guess I am fucked.

I'm not disagreeing with you, but this is one of those studies that should be obvious. Like on the level of the "men like porn" study.

Think of the fact that for years, the NFL blocked this research by saying the links didn't exist. Now there's the studies with just that info. You're so right in your post.

Lawsuits are coming that the NFL owners and enablers can't legislate away. Millions of our youth are destroyed each year to combat and contact sports cte factories. Now everyone can sue for the covering up of it.

They wonder why all the cognitive issues for non pro athletes parallel pros later in life for minor league, collegiate, and high-school players as well? Damage was done as kids badly, and that never goes away.

Won't just be the NFL, also hockey, pro wrestling, soccer, mma, boxing, collegiate contact sports in general, they are in trouble, and pretty much any combat sport It's going to get ugly for these owners by this time next year.

How bad would the outcome of like 6-8 severe concussions be later in life?

Tom is that you?

[removed]

[removed]

[removed]

[removed]

[removed]

[removed]

I don't think there's a catch all answer for that. I'm sure it would depend on how severe the concussions were and how predisposed to things like Alzheimer's or Dementia you are already.

[removed]

It doesn’t work like that. Each one is bad. Each successive one is worse

[removed]

Y’all know about all your concussions?

Like none of mine under 20 got diagnosed, but now that I’ve had them while older and I’m like “Jfc i had so many while young that were just ignored”

Next year is very optimistic. I expect they will have another half decade of heavily profiting off of continuing to brain damage our youth

Not just combat sports. Figure skating, gymnastics, competitive cheerleading… basically anything where you’re moving at higher speeds, hurling yourself or someone else into the air, across a hard surface, with zero protective gear. I got at least 3 concussions (that I know of) figure skating when I was a teenager. The first thing you learn in skating is how to fall, but that’s not always enough to protect you.

[removed]

I still think back to the time my vision briefly went inverted after taking a shot to my helmet in lacrosse. We’ll see how old age treats me, I guess.

[removed]

[removed]

[removed]

My last concussion when I was like 12 took out my vision in my peripherals. I was also having some weird side-effect where when I tried to read words, I knew what I was reading, but when I would say them out loud the wrong ones would come out.

My parents didn't know at the time you're not supposed to nap when you have a concussion, so I napped and then woke up fine.

[removed]

There still needs to be a far better CTE study done. The one everybody knows about only studied football player brains. So essentially no control.

Agreed. To be honest, we need more data across the spectrum, including non-athletes. However, CTE can only be 100% determined in an autopsy.

[removed]

My dad is actually studying this currently

How are you guys having so many concussions?!

[removed]

How often does the average person get a concussion? I’m 27 and have never had one

To be filed under 'things we knew, but still need to prove'

Do testicles actually not fully heal after minor injuries? Or are you just memeing?

[removed]

Having read the article, his comment still holds.

[removed]

Anyone, except people who like to draw medical/scientific conclusions based on actual data.

I've had mine as an adult. 3 from bicycle accidents, 5 snowboarding, and one cleaning the house.

I've noticed it's getting more difficult to remember details about them all as I age.

I pity not those at the upper echelon of sports but all those who are at equal risk with modest to minimal income from enacting oneself to the sport without exorbitant salaries as evident in the top most leauges wherein the income is extremely rightly skewed.

That’s a lot of concussions!

What if it's also reversed? People with worse cognitive function are more prone to concussions? ie. dumb people are more careless and get in to for example more fights. Would be plausable. It's not like they could do a double blind study.

[removed]

[removed]

Sports! At least for me: age 10 - little league baseball, line drive to forehead -> 15 minute LOC. High school football - spear tackled opponent at full speed (was taught and encouraged then!)-> both of us carried off the field, 5 min LOC and likely C-spine compression fracture for me and emergency splenectomy for the other guy. high school ski jumping fall -> 5 minute LOC. skiing face plant on tree age 22-> >= 5 min LOC with basilar skull fracture. Fainted and fell backward onto concrete floor age 25 -> >=15 min LOC and basilar skull fracture producing cerebrospinal fluid leak through nose. Final ski accident age mid 60’s -> brief LOC. Now, at age 70 I’m definitely noticing various memory issues…

Yes, sometimes studies have findings that sound obvious when you condense them down to a headline. There's still value in testing and quantifying things

Nothing wrong with pointing out the finding is commonsensical.

I used to have a real problem hitting myself in the head. I don’t do it anymore. I learned about trauma and got good help.

How can they tell it's not the poor mental performance that caused the concussion rather than vice versa?

I would expect statistically people with worse mental capabilities to put themselves at increased risk to get a concussion.

There could be correlation where people associated with traditionally higher mental capabilities choose safer activities and profession in general. Not saying all people do that, but just statistically. Choosing a high risk activity does not mean you are not intelligent by any means.

[removed]

I guess what they have to do is put all people to sleep, for certain individuals trigger a concussion while they are sleeping and for others leave them be, but inject something to trigger headache and other symptoms as if there was a concussion. Then they wake up both groups and tell them that they are within the concussion group.

[removed]

Not necessarily. Brain not working well could cause concussions to happen due to different risk evaluation.

That's why the used the word "may". They wouldn't know for sure which way the causation is.

Did they control for alcohol use? They didn’t mention it in the limitations. 40-50% adult TBI is associated with alcohol use which we know is a cognitive risk factor. Also adhd and impulsive behaviors in young men correlate more with tbi which could be a factor. Not saying concussions are good but we still don’t fully understand why.

You really think this is a good study that gives us definitive information? Not so much. We still know little about CTE.

You may be right but you’re grossly overstating the evidence. Not everyone with concussions gets CTE. The science on tbi has not been stifled by the nfl. There are lots of veteran studies and athlete studies. Maybe the nfl is a different beast but let’s not get all dogmatic.

You mean life? Driving, running, biking

If anyone gives you a definitive answer they are full of crap. We just don’t know. You have increased risk but no certainty of dementia

Wow. You cracked the case.

The same people would be laughing at people studying gravity because “of course it’s going to fall” as if we don’t learn all sorts of other information in seeing how fast it falls.

Surprise, it’s a dose ranging study. You’ll be hit with increasingly larger hammers until you sustain a concussion.

[removed]

[removed]

That's the hard part.

My kids are young, and my son wants to play things I did. He's also watching me die from the long-term effects of being a pro athlete in my 20s and 30s.

It's hard to properly teach my kids that sports have consequences long after the now without squashing hopes and dreams.

I want him to play the sports he wants, but it's difficult knowing some are not safe at any level, unfortunately. There's no safe way to beat physics of the law of motion and protect your brain. We're humans, not woodpeckers, with special engineering to protect their brains.

Yup. Any traumatic brain injury is rough.

Look at the number of Nascar drivers with cte and cte type symptoms. Earnhardt Jr. retired due to repeated traumatic brain injury.

[removed]

Mt Siani has a great CTE team of neurologists who work with the Concussion Legacy Foundation and others doing deep research. They are studying brains from all sports and actively recruiting from more than just the nfl for studies and brain donations.

It's another fallacy. That this is only one study and not enough research. It's a massive effort now.

I'm typing this post when just a couple of years ago, I could not. So there is hope even if it's for short windows. But it's there and there is help coming. It won't be fast enough to save some of us, but we're trying.

So is there an answer for this other than just do away with football and other contact sports? Is it realistic to develop helmets that can minimize concussions and head trauma enough that playing contact sports isn't a huge risk? The issue is football is ingrained in the culture of a huge part of the US, especially in the south and Midwest. It seems very difficult to just say "no more football" and get any results.

[removed]

[removed]

I never said there was only one study. I specifically stated that the study that gets cited most is flawed. And if Sinai is only studying athlete brains, that study is flawed as well. There needs to be a control. Full stop.

Is your sarcasm implying that this could not possibly have a correlation?

I only played football through high school and suffered at least 2 severe concussions by the time I graduated. One of them was so severe they had to have someone come get me off the field and take me to the hospital. It's unbelievable how dangerous it is at very young ages.

"NFL Retirees Syndrome"

[deleted]

depends, theres no real answer. sports, icy countries, helmets etc all contribute

[removed]

Do brain injuries cause scarring in the brain? Makes sense that this would lead to reduced cognitive function.

Thankfully so! It would be a strange world where concussions led to better brain function in later life.

I take your point though of course, confirmation of presumed effects is very important work.

No, I mean going 20+ mph across a slick and extremely hard surface, hurtling yourself into the air while spinning backwards, aiming to land perfectly balanced on one foot, all while while wearing leather boots with steel ankle plates, 1.5 inch heels, wheels of extremely sharp spikes on your toes that are attached to concave razor blades that glide across the top of the ice, and are designed not to cut into it like hockey skates. And doing all of that in only tights and what amounts to a stretchy velvet swimsuit; no padding or helmets in sight (or allowed). For 4+ hours a day, depending on what level you compete at. Unless you’re in a competition, you’re also doing that in the same space as 3-9 other skaters at the same time.

It’s a bit more involved than running.

A strong body of evidence depends on many different independent studies, not a single strong one in isolation.

Yes, jockeys are in a similar situation. There’s actually research on jockeys. I don’t necessarily disagree that there’s a lot of potential risk from cumulative effects of the brain bouncing around in the skull. The problem is there’s also a lot of hype about it and not enough good science. I try to stay open and skeptical as a society should be.

[removed]

Exactly, you reinforce my points. We don’t have a strong body of evidence on CTE

[removed]

Thank god I just coach running

[removed]

[removed]

The movie, "Concussion" was based on a true story. This was proven some time before 2015(when the movie was released).

"chronic traumatic encephalopathy (CTE) brain degeneration"

https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/chronic-traumatic-encephalopathy/#:~:text=Chronic%20traumatic%20encephalopathy%20(CTE)%20is,support%20can%20manage%20the%20symptoms.

EDIT: Did not realize someone said the same thing already...

I grew up playing hockey and snowboarding, kind of wish I hadn't