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riff-computer t1_jd6twp3 wrote

Reply to comment by donsanedrin in Judge dismisses gamers’ claims that Microsoft/Activision merger will spoil gaming by Flawed_L0gic

Sony acquired 21 video game studios from 1993 - 2022, including Insomniac, Guerrilla, Naughty Dog, and even an entire publisher, Psygnosis. Let’s not pretend everything PlayStation did was built from the ground up by Sony. This doesn’t even consider timed exclusivity deals with third party studios. Feel free to browse the list here: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_acquisitions_by_Sony

I’m not saying Microsoft should not be critiqued but you can’t say Sony’s behaviour was any different as they established their footing in the industry.

Edit - spelling

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donsanedrin t1_jd9ip3j wrote

By the way, I did look at those 21 video game studios.

Just to be clear, let's state the reason WHY you felt like telling us about these studios. You are trying to make the claim that Sony "took something away", correct? That something existing in the gaming space, and by performing a business acquisition, Sony "took something" away from the gaming space.

I believe we can both agree that you are trying to say that, in order to say that what Microsoft is doing is "no worse than things Sony has already done." Correct?

Let's start by shrinking that list down by pointing out studios that they "acquired", that don't actually make games, or have no existing games to be taken away.

  • Bluepoint Games doesn't make video games, never has. They are a porting studio. They are a contractor that provides a service. The number of games that have been "taken" from you because of this acquisition? 0

  • Nixxess also doesn't make video games. They are also a port studio. Number of games that have been "taken" from you because of this acquisition? 0

  • Haven Studios.......has yet to make a video game. This is a completely brand new studio, created by Jade Raymond. It was funded by Sony. So, has Sony "taken" anything from anyone? Nope. This is a company they help found.

  • Plumbee, as far as I can tell, has never created any video game in the traditional video game space. The only company profile I found for this company says that it created "social casino games across all platforms" and the website www.plumbee.com (or .co.uk) isn't even working. This listing may be obsolete.

  • Valkyrie Entertainment. Appears to only be a support studio that "assists developers and publishers in creating content and assets." They have existed since 2002, and this is the list of games in which they have worked on, that I was able to find. As you can see, these are all games in which the core development and creation comes from other studios. It appears that this studio creates graphics and art assets, either for a video game or for marketing used by the publisher. Number of games taken away from this acquisition? 0

  • Savage Game Studios. Has not made anything yet. Their founded members were people that "had a hand" in Clash of Clans and Angry Birds. According to this article, they were founded in 2020, but were acquired in 2022 by Sony's Playstation Studios Mobile Division to "which will focus on creating games based on new or existing Playstation IP." So either they pitched a new IP, or they are being assigned to work on an existing IP, whatever it is its going to be fully owned by Sony from the time the game releases.

So, we're already down to 15.

Now, lets talk about studio "acquisitions" in which they were funded by Sony from the very beginning in order to produce a video game that was pitched to, and bought by Sony........from the very beginning.

In other words, none of these games were ever designed or funded to be multiplatform IPs, the IPs were purchased/owned by Sony from the very beginning, so that they would be published by Sony:

  • Incognito Entertainment. This studio was the studio set up by David Jaffe after he was no longer part of Sony's internal studio that created the Twisted Metal series (989 Studios). Their first deal to publish their very first game was with Sony. And that's because David Jaffe was going to continue making more Twisted Metal. So, in other words, the studio was formed to continue working on an existing IP that Sony already owned. After Twisted Metal Black was released, Sony bought out the studio, and had them work on other Twisted Metal Games, and make Warhawk before the studio was dissolved, since they all left to go form Eat, Sleep, Play. Number of games taken away? 0

  • Sigil Games Online. This is a studio that was created after Sony Online and their subsidaries created EverQuest. They actually were in a deal to publish their only game, Vanguard: Saga of Heroes, with Microsoft, until that publishing deal fell through. Without a publisher, they went back to Sony to publish the game. And it was never designed for Playstation, it was a PC-only release. So Sony actually helped save this game in 2007 so that it can release on PC. The game came and went without much fanfare, the studio hasn't accomplished anything since.

  • Media Molecule. Members from Lionhead studios went to Sony to pitch the concept for LittleBigPlanet in 2005. Sony gave them seed money to form the studio in 2006. They made a deal to fund the development of LittleBigPlanet, to be published by Sony. The IP of LittleBigPlanet would be owned by Sony from the very beginning. Once the game released, Sony bought the studio.

  • Firesprite. These are ex-Psygnosis/Sony Liverpool employees. They spent their first few years working on spinoffs of existing Sony IPs. Run Sackboy! Run! is a game based on LittleBigPlanet's mascot. They developed VR games for Playstation VR. They did create and publish their own VR game, called The Persistance, for multiple platforms. And they continued supporting the game for the new platforms in 2021. They were fully purchased by Sony to work on Horizon Call of the Mountain in VR.

  • Lasengle. They appear to be a Japanese mobile game developer that was spun-off from a Japanese media company. Their first game appears to have been a very big hit game in Japan, called Fate/Grand Order. The game was published by Sony Music Corp. for Android and iOS, and then came to arcades in Japan. So they don't even make traditional games, and the type of games they do make were being published by Sony subsidiaries this entire time.

We're down to 10 studios, now?

From this point forward, these remaining studios ACTUALLY HAD GAMES that were conceived, created, and published without any noticeable involvement from Sony.

And I'm going to try and list these actual games, so that maybe you can give me an honest assessment of what you think has been "taken" from you and what you believe has been taking away from the general gaming space.

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RedditBlows5876 t1_jd9kbb3 wrote

>Bluepoint Games doesn't make video games, never has. They are a porting studio. They are a contractor that provides a service. The number of games that have been "taken" from you because of this acquisition? 0

Can't even get past the first bullet point without you being completely wrong on all fronts. They made Blast Factor. They also were responsible for porting Metal Gear Solid HD Collection to the Xbox 360. I'm sure it'll be fine though, you seem like the type who will humbly admit you were wrong and move on.

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donsanedrin t1_jd9ll7t wrote

> Blast Factor

Which means they belong in the second group.

There you go, there's my humility, right there.

In other words, lemme repeat the final sentence of that bullet point.

Number of games that were "taken" from you? 0

That's a Sony published game from the get-go. In other words, Sony has already been doing business with Bluepoint since their very inception.

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RedditBlows5876 t1_jd9lybk wrote

>Number of games that were "taken" from you? 0

Did you miss the part about the Metal Gear port? Could absolutely be robbing the industry of other remasters like that for Xbox.

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donsanedrin t1_jd9majw wrote

Did you miss the part that I clearly called them a port-house from the very beginning?

> Could absolutely be robbing the industry of other remasters like that for Xbox.

Wwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwhat? Have you actually played Metal Gear Solid 2 Sons of Liberty on the Xbox?

You're joking right?............you're basically saying that you're not taking this discussion seriously. Right?

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RedditBlows5876 t1_jd9pf1e wrote

Ah, like I said, you're clearly very humble about being wrong on both fronts.

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donsanedrin t1_jd9pqxs wrote

Except I wasn't wrong, I had already created a category that already explains that. So I admitted that it should've been in that category.

It was accounted for.

You're trying to too hard to throw it out, because...........you don't actually want to argue the whole details of your claim.......because you know your claim is vastly wrong and dishonest, and exaggerated.

And you know that the more I get you to delve into your claim, INTO THE DETAILS, the more wrong you look.

Hence, you're trying to find a way out, quickly, right now.

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RedditBlows5876 t1_jd9txbo wrote

>So I admitted that it should've been in that category.

That's called being wrong.

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donsanedrin t1_jd9uluq wrote

And then showing the humility that I already created the proper space where I should've listed it.

It seems like you think this nitpick fully discredits me, when all you've done is told me that Bluepoint belongs a little lower in my post.

And, doesn't change anything I've said because..........I will repeat again. Number of games that were taken from you? 0

Port-jobs can be done by other studios..........OR by the publisher themselves.

So if you worry about future Metal Gear games, Bluepoint never controlled any of that..........Konami did. Stop trying to give credit to Bluepoint for something Konami has full control over, and for something Konami can solve on their own if they wanted to.

Edit: ...and then he blocks me because he doesn't want to see me point out where he is being misleading and disingenuous.

So, I will point that out here, to his final post below: > Except, I already created a spot in my place where that SAME EXACT listing would be place.

> And I already told you that it shouldn't be in the first part, but rather moved downward in my post.

> Notice how you don't want to describe it in detail........you want to cling to the general phrasing of "got it wrong."

> And notice how I actually provide details that you intentionally leave out?

> Yeah.......I notice.

> So, you made a weak attempt to try and discredit my entire post by clinging onto a nitpick, that I went and admitted HOW it should be correctly placed in my post.

> Thanks for admitting that you were never being genuine to begin with.

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RedditBlows5876 t1_jd9vvbk wrote

You mean like a normal person "oh yep, got that one wrong". No, that's not what you did. Kind of like I predicted. Anyway, have a nice day.

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WALKAW t1_jd9uog5 wrote

How many massive multiplatform franchises has Sony bought and taken away from other platforms?

The answer is 0

While MS continue to buy up massive publishers to take massive multiplatform franchises away from Playstation

People should easily be able to see the difference. If not then there is something wrong with you

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donsanedrin t1_jd6xxed wrote

They didn't buy any of these games that we call "exclusives".

They bought studios for their talent, and created new IPs from them.

They did not TAKE CONTROL over an existing popular IP.

Yes, they did build things from the ground up.

Yes, it absolutely is different behavior.

Why are you pretending that you don't know the obvious difference?

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riff-computer t1_jd6yvtl wrote

I do know the difference. For example, Rare , Obsidian and Tango have produced high quality, new IP for Microsoft since being acquired. This includes Hi-Fi rush, Sea of Thieves, Grounded and Pentiment. That’s talent acquired, as you describe, not franchises.

Not a single franchise that already existed on Playstation has yet to be removed from Sony’s platform. I can still download all existing Bethesda games on my PS4 if I like. Can you name me a title which was confirmed and announced for PS5 or PS4, from an acquired studio, which has since been cancelled on Sony’s platform?

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donsanedrin t1_jd95p9n wrote

> Not a single franchise that already existed on Playstation has yet to be removed from Sony’s platform

The Outer Worlds sequel definitely appears to be.

The first game was on Playstation.

This new patch that they are selling to upgrade to the new consoles, and by all accounts is the OPPOSITE of "high quality", are them still selling to Playstation consumers.

The Outer World 2 is only scheduled for Xbox and PC.

Try explaining that.

> Can you name me a title which was confirmed and announced for PS5 or PS4, from an acquired studio, which has since been cancelled on Sony’s platform?

Starfield was premiered at Bethesda's own independent E3 conference in 2018. All of their games at that conference were games that were expected on all major platforms at the time, Xbox, Playstation, and PC.

Therefore Starfield, from the very beginning, had a clear expectation that they were going to be available for all platforms that Bethesda/Zenimax had already been making games for.

You already know this. I really hope you don't start adopting Xbox marketing-speak to try and get around that one.

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riff-computer t1_jd9e804 wrote

They now own both IP’s and are free to do with them as they wish. The Outer Worlds 1 still exists on PlayStation. The sequel did not enter production until later. Quite simple.

And I’m sorry but Starfield being expected to launch on PlayStation was not confirmation of anything. You can’t claim it was lost when marketing material never said it was coming to PS5. The business world does not run on expected to’s. This is the simple objective truth of it. I’m not saying it’s right, but that’s how it is. I expected Silent Hill 2, FF, and Octopath Traveller 2 on Xbox. Doesn’t mean anything.

While your cherry picking examples, explain why it’s any different that Final Fantasy, a franchise that has long existed on Xbox, is now not getting any new mainline entries thanks to Sony continuing to pay SE to keep it off the platform? Or does this behaviour not count when it comes from a market leader?

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donsanedrin t1_jd9l5dq wrote

> They now own both IP’s and are free to do with them as they wish

So you just immediately went and moved your goalposts.

Did you think I wasn't going to notice that you just did that?

You literally asked me "show me where they are changing the parameters"

I went and showed you.

And then you just casually responded ".........as it is their right to do so"

You just proved my point, as to why they shouldn't be allowed to buy out Activision.

> And I’m sorry but Starfield being expected to launch on PlayStation was not confirmation of anything. You can’t claim it was lost when marketing material never said it was coming to PS5.

It was clearly a multiplatform announcement, since they were a multiplatform developer/publisher having a press conference for all of their games, which were multiplatform.

You attempting this legalspeak isn't going to dismiss basic common sense. When Todd Howard is saying this is his next major IP, its meant to be alongside Elder Scrolls and Fallout.

Games and Franchises that are multiplatform, and HAVE BEEN multiplatform for a while now. The expectation is more than obvious.

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riff-computer t1_jd9og0k wrote

Look, I’ve clearly struck a chord here. I’m not out here saying Microsoft is making the correct decisions, but the core of my position is that Sony did, and continues to acquire studios to boost their portfolio. They are not some bastion of building their entire business from the ground up, that’s my point.

I have owned every platform since the N64 and PS1 (and plan to continue to do so) I have watched this go down over the last 2 decades. I’m not trying to diminish whatever these studios have done post acquisition, but in another 2 decades it’s incredibly likely Microsoft will have fostered similar success. So what if you lose a couple games on your favourite plastic box? Buy both of its really an issue for you. The real issue here is exclusives are bad for everyone in general, and both have continued to push the divide further.

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donsanedrin t1_jd9qk64 wrote

> Look, I’ve clearly struck a chord here.

No, that internet tactic doesn't work with me, either.

> I’m not out here saying Microsoft is making the correct decisions, but the core of my position is that Sony did, and continues to acquire studios to boost their portfolio

No, you are saying that it is okay for Microsoft to do a anti-consumer move because you CLAIM that Sony does such anti-consumer moves all the time.

You are trying to say that Sony has established this practice already.

You are wrong, dishonest, and greatly exaggerating this.

> I’m not trying to diminish whatever these studios have done post acquisition, but in another 2 decades it’s incredibly likely Microsoft will have fostered similar success.

Really? Take a look at the state of the Halo brand.

You are now claiming that Microsoft is buying Call of Duty, Diablo, Warcraft..............to IMPROVE upon them and take them to new heights in terms of success?

That's laughable.

Microsoft is trying to CORNER A MARKET. Anybody with half a brain can see this from a mile away.

They started by buying a $7.5 billion dollar publisher, which is more than twice as large as any gaming acquisition Sony has ever made. And then the very next year they announced they are spending ten times that amount to buy an even bigger publisher.

These are the very first and second moves that a corporation makes when they are trying to corner a market.

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WALKAW t1_jd9utlq wrote

None of those can be described as "high quality IPs". They are mostly small indie sized games.

No future Zenimax game.will be on Playstation and when they acquire Activision it will be the same.

Again not hard to see the issue

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donsanedrin t1_jd9ygjk wrote

> Can you name me a title which was confirmed and announced for PS5 or PS4, from an acquired studio, which has since been cancelled on Sony’s platform?

IGN France just posted a timely article, today, that gives us another example:

> During our Redfall preview session , we had the opportunity to chat with the game's creative director, Harvey Smith (who also worked on Deus Ex and Dishonored 1 and 2). This was an opportunity to ask him the question about the impact of the acquisition of Bethesda by Microsoft in 2021, right during the development of Redfall.

> Harvey Smith told us that one of the notable consequences was the immediate cancellation of the PlayStation 5 version of the game.

> "We were acquired by Microsoft and it was a change with capital C. They came in and they said 'No PlayStation 5, we're focusing on Xbox, PC and the Game Pass'."

What Microsoft executives are saying internally does not coincide with what they say to the outside world.

Good on this developer, and for IGN France, for getting a hard quote that makes it very clear about what is happening.

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riff-computer t1_jdalrrh wrote

You left this part out. He’s not championing against the merger or in support of Sony. That game was not announced at the time, as a consumer you have not lost anything promised.

“It’s not very serious, it’s even a good decision I think,” Smith said of dropping the PS5 version. “[It helps to] support Game Pass and have one less platform to worry about, one less complexity.”

He added: “Game Pass has a ton of players, it could become our biggest game thanks to 30 million, where I can’t remember the exact number, of subscribers.”

You keep cherry picking to support your emotional viewpoint. I’ll say it one last time, all exclusives are inherently bad for consumers, and Sony has indeed prevented games from being launched on rival platforms. There is tons of evidence out there (Final Fantasy would like to have a word, it doesn’t matter if they don’t own the IP, they are paying to keep it off the Xbox).

They don’t do this for you, they do it to protect their position in the market. Now Microsoft follows their established lead and everyone freaks out? It was only last generation that Insomniac released a game on the Xbox (Sunset Overdrive), and now that studio will never work with anyone but Sony again.

Yes, some IP has been lost in the process to Microsoft, but if Sony is as amazing as you say they will be able to produce their own in house rivals to these franchises.

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donsanedrin t1_jdautrh wrote

> That game was not announced at the time

This is some ridiculous internet fanboy logic.

Just like your other post in which you said "Well, they didn't PROMISE, did they"

What comes after that? "Well, they weren't crossing their fingers behind their back when they said it, did they?"

How many arbitrary rules do you want to put in place in order to defend Xbox here?

This was a game in development for Playstation, they literally were told stop for non-gaming, non-technical reasons. They were told to stop, and it clearly had an anti-consumer impact.

> You keep cherry picking to support your emotional viewpoint

After your ridiculous logic, you have no place to lecture anybody about "emotional viewpoints."

> Sony has indeed prevented games from being launched on rival platforms

No, they haven't

Please show me a permanent buyout, and them shutting down existing game development.

You do understand that marketing deals or timed exclusivity is a TWO PARTY partnership. Sony didn't FORCE anything, they didn't bully their way into anything.

> (Final Fantasy would like to have a word, it doesn’t matter if they don’t own the IP, they are paying to keep it off the Xbox).

No where near the level of what Microsoft is already doing with Zenimax, and what they will eventually do with Activision games.

Once again, Sony didn't bully Square-Enix. Squre-Enix made that business choice.

> Now Microsoft follows their established lead and everyone freaks out?

Once again, your entire basis for this line is based on making a clear and dishonest claim.

Your fanboy is absolutely showing here.

> It was only last generation that Insomniac released a game on the Xbox (Sunset Overdrive), and now that studio will never work with anyone but Sony again.

Sunset Overdrive bombed, Insomniac choose to work with Sony on a Sony-controlled IP. And they made their most successful game, and then they choose to continue doing business with Sony, and their owners chose to get bought out.

Once again..........Insomniac is NOT a publisher, and NOT even a major publisher.

Once again.........Insomniac HAD NO MAJOR GAMING IP at the time they were acquired. The IP was already in Sony's hands.

You were never getting a Spider-man game on Xbox. Zero Percent chance of that ever happening.

Do you honestly believe what you are typing? You're trying to compare these things as the same?

> Yes, some IP has been lost in the process to Microsoft

Zenimax, a publisher that averages between $500-$550 million in revenue annually--which puts them on the level of Capcom or Konami--was bought out entirely.

And Activision--which generates about $7.2 billion in revenue annually--and is probably the single biggest third-party publisher that conducts most of its business in the west, and is only behind Microsoft/Sony/Nintendo.

You're over here trying to downplay it as "well.........some IP"

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