[deleted]

way to go in true reddit style - not reading the article.

"The 5G coverage will be made possible by installing a so-called "pico-cell" in the aircraft. Via that network station, telephone calls, text messages and data traffic can be sent via a satellite network to a mobile network on the ground."

Great. Welcome to the seatmate who spends the flight yammering on their phone.

Planes are pretty loud. Plus it’s not like they can stop you from being just as rude and having a 1 way conversation with them.

Noone is talking on their phone anymore.... That's at least gen x folks...

Just wait til you see the per minute charges. VOIP is a better solution.

Young Gen X here, we do not talk on our phones.

Thank you for saying this. We definitely aren’t talking on the phone. And, to add, I despise texts that can’t be resolved in three messages.

Older GenX here, same. Parents though ….

My parents talk on the phone, sure. They were also born during WWII…. :)

[deleted]

How are your phones able to connect with Cell towers for 30k feet reliably without an antenna booster?

The phones connect to a cell repeater in the aircraft, not to cell towers on the ground.

This will not end well.

While the EU bans roaming between member states, this does not include airlines and cruise ships. People will be forced to turn airplane mode in order not to pay ridiculous prices for roaming.

But.. but.. think about all the radiation we will be exposed to when flying now..

/s

Why not?

[deleted]

Can you even maintain a call signal on a plane?

Didn’t people already did this illegally before?

Another Gen Xer with parents from the quiet generation. They don't talk on their phones, either, it's texting only for those octogenarians.

You can disable data roaming, you know.

I knew this would eventually change once I heard that pilots use tablets in the cockpit years ago. The idea that phones or tablets generate unsafe conditions for technical reasons doesn’t make sense (although the question of creating social conflicts is another issue).

[removed]

It’s not a “repeater” by any stretch of the imagination.

Am I misunderstanding you here, the EU doesnt ban roaming among its member states. In fact it has quite strict regulations on roaming within the EU, currently valid until 2032, that severely limits roaming charges.

The cell operator Im a customer of has no extra roaming charges at all up until a very high monthly cap (higher than I reach in 6 months easily) and as far as Im aware, this is pretty much standard. Ive been to Germany, Poland, Romania and Portugal quite recently and incurred no extra charges for any of these trips.

I used to work for Vodafone and once had a call from someone who got the ferry over from Dover to Calais (pre-brexit). Apparently he didn't realise his phone was on in his pocket and used like 5mb of data (just through weather/ambient apps or whatever I guess). They charged him about £30 for it. They literally charged £6 per mb. When I spoke to general customer services to see if this was a mistake, they said the charges were totally legitimate and that he wouldn't be refunded for it.

Absolutely ludicrous.

That's the best quick summary of what those "pico-cells" are doing I can come up with, open to suggestions on a better one.

That person will get a bill the size of the planes cruising height after that call.

Who’s going to tel them that none of us use airplane mode anyways?

Or blasting music from phones. A classic.

You do realize they do not connect to terrestrial cell towers, right? Ergo, they are not repeaters. They connect to satellites (as some remote cell towers do). It doesn’t need to be called anything other than what it is: pico cell.

I didn’t know what a pico cell was. Thank you for explaining it. I do know vaguely what a repeater is, and found that terminology, though perhaps less specific, useful to getting his point.

[deleted]

Kinda silly to not use airplane mode. Your phone's gonna waste a ton of battery looking for signals and jumping between towers for a connection that you aren't going to use anyway.

Its more or less the same technology used in the cruise ships during navigation, so if for any chance you use some data or call somebody using their "signal" they will charge you "extra" (extra can be understood as 1 kidney)

To be clear, a pico cell is simply a cell site with limited range. It doesn’t need to connect to a satellite. Most connect via fiber, like most cell sites.

Yes, similar. Of course a bit more challenging when you are traveling at 550 MPH vs 25 MPH.

"Router" would be a more suiteable word, you make a small coverage area connected by "lan/satellite" to the main network...

yep, thats why I said "more or less the same technology" :P

So nice of you to tell me my job.

Right.. the pico cell on a fucking airplane is gonna be connected via fiber...

I never have it disabled because every country that I travel to in Europe does not charge me for roaming. My operator also does not charge me for Norway, UK, Switzerland, and some other countries outside the EU.

Are you usually this challenged by reading comprehension?

Excuse me, where have I been rude to you? it is also part of my job and I though we were having a nice conversation...

So many people are going to use this as an excuse to argue with a stewardess/steward. "Well they allow it in the EU so what's the big deal"

You’re saying interesting things but you’re coming across as a dick, not sure if it’s intentional. Just so you know

Let’s just say I didn’t expect this level of ignorance in a technology sub. Not intentional.

[removed]

Do calls even work from planes? They have lines of sight with towers, sure. But with many of them, far away, and moving fast...

[deleted]

[removed]

[removed]

All new commercial airplanes will be fly-by-wire in 2023!

If a cellphone could cause a plane to crash I'd be seriously worried about the design.

Are you? You contradicted yourself immedietly after..

https://i.imgur.com/oeeDBpH.png

First line of the article: “Within the European Union, airlines will be able to install the latest 5G technology on their aircraft, allowing passengers to use their smartphones and other connected devices just as they do on the ground.”

Oh god, I didn’t think of that.

Yes, if the tower is moving with you. First line of the article: “Within the European Union, airlines will be able to install the latest 5G technology on their aircraft, allowing passengers to use their smartphones and other connected devices just as they do on the ground.”

I read their post to mean the same thing you’re describing—that the EU restricts fees on roaming between member states. Their point was that these restrictions won’t necessarily apply in the context of calls made while in flight (why they wouldn’t, I have no idea).

That's not why the rule is there.

In the US, the rule comes from the FCC, not the FAA.

It's not about the plane. It's about having hundreds of devices rapidly switching towers as a plane takes off or lands. Causing lots of needless work for the cell system, waste of resources and loads of interference and congestion on the RF spectrum.

Has nothing to do with the plane.

What will happen if you have a non-5G phone? One that does only 4G, etc. Will it try to reach the ground since the pico-cell doesn't serve it?

Also, how is this better than WiFi we have? Seems like just a way more companies to get in the way and charge us money.

What article, I just read headlines and comments.

What he is saying is that roaming only covers ground charges, there will be chaarges for using the airlines system to make calls, so if you don't turn airplane mode, chances are you will have an enormous data bill from the network running in the background.

He does? Pico's on planes connect to sats, terrestrial pico's can use fiber?

My mother uses Whatsapp, to my chagrin, because I hate that app (I prefer Apple's messaging or SMS, I wish I could get people to stop sending me Facebook messages also - Whatsapp is more secure but it's just a terrible app).

Odd, my kids talk on the phone all the time... they're 9, 9 and 11. They text too.

My kids are 9, 9, and 11, and they talk with their freinds all the time.

Voice calls are already possible on airplanes due to many flights providing wifi + whatsapp/etc and it's not a problem. Most, if not all, airlines already ban any sort of voice call on planes to avoid disruption to other passengers.

Does it connect to the same internet as when you're on the ground?

Sounds like a repeater to me.

Some flights have WI-FI you can pay for. So WiFi calls are possible on flights.

Is your job being a dick? Because you're on track to be employee of the month.

True, but airlines for years lied their asses off and claimed this anyway. And they wonder why we don’t trust them.

That dude needs to step away from Reddit for a bit 😂

Why would it cost anything different than while on the ground?

Does it repeat the signal from the cellphone to the satellite?

If you click on that headline, you will discover that there are several sentences that go with each of those headlines giving more details! You may have to hunt for them hiding behind, under, and between video ads though. So I understand why no one would go to the trouble.

Last millennial: my phone is always on dnd. We don’t talk to ppl on the phone

I won’t change my mind on anything, regardless of the facts that are set out before me. I’m dug in and I’ll never change.

The primary limitation to the frequencies used by cell phones is that they are line of sight, power isn’t really as relevant. A 25,000+ foot elevation difference between phones and towers allows for some pretty awesome line of sight.

Aside from the issues having a 25,000+ foot elevation difference in terms of line of sight caused with roaming back when roaming was a big deal with carriers.

Depends on the cellular technology in use and the configuration of the tower antenna systems.

Yep. I needed EU’s permission. Suuuuure.

The phone don’t connect to the towers on the ground, but are linked through a hub at the plane which (here I’m a bit fuzzy about the tech, but) cost a loooot to traffic data and calls through.

We already get elevated levels of radiation exposure due to thinner atmosphere at higher altitudes.

More dangerous than 5G will ever be. (AFAWK)

Yeah, I learned about this in my 400-level Engineering Electromagnetics class. Cool stuff.

Honestly haven't used it on planes in forever. Forgot to turn on airplane mode once a long time ago, noticed we didn't crash and just left it from then on lol

>didn’t expect this level of ignorance

​

>Not intentional

If that isn't intentional, you need to work on your communcation skills bro

That feels like a hella weak argument…

Choice. Now I get some inconsiderate knob talking right next to my ear for 2 hours straight.

[removed]

If you want to read more about the technology, you can check out Gogo Text & Talk: https://business.gogoair.com/gogo-text-talk/

It’s what we use in business aviation for phone calls and Internet (Gogo L3/L5).

Didn't the rule used to be "No electronic devices on at all during takeoff and landing"?

Anecdotal for sure but I had it explained to me that it was so people didn't have their faces in their phones/devices during take off and landing, those being the most dangerous periods of a flight. The claim was that they want to ensure the passengers are attentive and able to hear any emergency announcements in case there are any issues.

I got in to this conversation with a flight attendant who insisted during take off that I turned off my mp3 player (quite a few years ago). The device had no wireless capabilities at all so there was never any chance of it causing any RF interference which I explained. I was in a seat next to the emergency door at one of the wings and they said they typically don't bother enforcing the rule for most seats except those directly at an exit. Again, anecdotal but it sounds a reasonable enough explanation and a fair request for those seats at emergency exits.

Where does the “seat up, tray up, everything put away” rule come from? I could understand the last 5 minutes, but my last flight in June they did it like 30-40 mins in advance. Still mad I didn’t get to finish my movie!

God I can already imagine it. Flying to Turkey with my mum. She'll be on her phone, she has no voice volume.... -

"Yeah, yeah we'll be landing in an hour I'll call you then -"

😕

great, here come all the noisy phone-talkers.

That’s an egress thing. Takeoff and landing is the most dangerous part of the flight. Want to make sure there isn’t shit blocking people from getting out or projectiles flying around.

If your flight crew didn’t get landing clearance as early as they thought they would or had a particularly long approach you could end up with an extended period of that.

They can do that anyway. Planes already have Wi-Fi

Most peeps never used airline mode anyway

Good fuckin lord bro, go jack off or something.

[deleted]

[deleted]

At least they're not yammering at me.

lol I’ve been using mine the whole time.

Yes it did have to do with the plane. They didn't know what would happen with radio interference at the time. Heck even the 777-200 was grounded because of on the ground signals not even in the aircraft

https://liveandletsfly.com/boeing-faa-777-787-5g/

LAX, Jeju Korea grounded the 777-200. Recently after putting a fence under the flight path to stop instagram-ers at Jeju airport, they then re-allowed the 777-200 to fly here again

I’m on one rn, got kids in front of me and behind me. They should have a airplane mode for kids, or some sound proof designated area just for kids

Yeah, if I remember right the FAA had a regulation that below 10,000 ft personal electronics had to be off (so during take off and landing) until that got changed a number of years back.

Right? I feel like that aspect should have been accounted for as part of the cell network design...

As a result, 5G coverage can also be made available on aircraft.

It's ridiculously expensive for many airlines and airports to switch over. There are old Boeings out there that still load software from floppy disk.

The reason we have people in airplane mode was there was a fear of detonating devices remotely with a cell phone after someone rigged a bomb to get this, a cell phone. Also people live-streaming on Facebook with their terrorist activities onboard.

Lastly, some of the older planes do have interference from some older cellular devices.

Some risks and costs will just be very slow to adopt, at least in the USA. There is too much money fighting any kind of upgrade.

I was led to believe that the reason we have people in airplane mode was there was a fear of detonating devices remotely with a cell phone after someone rigged a bomb to get this, a cell phone. Also people live-streaming on Facebook with their terrorist activities onboard.

-Flight attendant

[deleted]

There will definitely be violence related to this.

It's not one cellphone they're worried about, its the 400+ from all the passengers on the one 747 taking off.

My last flight, I was able to use iMessage without having to pay an extra fee.

Sure, but antennas on cell towers don't point up, they point towards the horizon, sometimes with a slight downward angle depending on the height of the tower relative to the subscribers. The part of the beam pattern that points above the horizon is typically pretty weak.

I was just on a flight in Europe yesterday and instead of no smoking signs in every row, there was no-phones light. That was a poor choice.

It would be nice if the would approve GPS in smartphones during flights as well

Yeah this person doesn’t know what they’re talking about. I remember having to be discreet with my mp3 player back when those were common so the flight attendant didn’t yell at me.

[deleted]

If that were true, people would've started arguing a lot time ago. This technology is already in use on hundreds of planes throughout the world. It's even installed on planes that fly in the EU. They just don't turn it on until they're out of EU airspace.

The reality is that if someone wants to turn their phone off airplane mode, they're not going to argue about it. They're just going to do it.

Yes! I mean, we like to talk but to people, not devices. I feel like the modern equivalent of “get off my lawn!” When people are talking over transportation noise and using speaker phones or walky talkie features in crowded confined places. I live in Japan and they pleasantly yet consistently remind everybody to NOT do that. Polite people here.

Yes but the higher you are, the further the distance to horizon. And like you stated depending on the tower’s location and the engineered coverage it needs to provide, it could be configured for mechanical down tilt, no tilt, or up tilt.

[deleted]

I believe they call it the cargo hold /s

Honestly I don’t travel via planes that much prob like 4-5 times a year. And this year I saw so many people with babies or kids. I think during Covid people just popped out kids.

I’ve been lucky enough that any noisy passengers have been far enough away that my noise canceling headphones have been able to take care of them.

And in the same spot not changing towers at the same time

That sounds like BS. How is it any different when everyone suddenly turns their phones back on after landing?

Spoiler: it's not

You must be real fun at parties with all your smart lil cellphone facts

4G internet I'd think.

I took a networking class that focused a lot on telephone networks, and it's really interesting. Pretty amazing how the telephone network was able to be adapted to accommodate internet, and vice versa with VoIP.

Common conservative L

Nah brother that’s a quote from the great Ronald “Mac” McDonlad.

It’s always sunny in Philadelphia.

My attempt to make everything political has failed weeps

so now cell phones don’t do this anymore? doesn’t make much sense.

If they’re already going to blow up a plane, asking them politely to turn off their phone isn’t going to stop them. After all, it’s all on the honor system anyway.

Why was roaming a big deal with carriers?

Yup. "We'll be landing in 45 minutes, so, welcome to BOREDOM"

I’ve never put my phone on airplane mode on a flight.

No plane or cell tower has ever been destroyed from my negligence

Cars on highways change towers all the time, and last I checked, there’s a lot more than 400 cars on a very short span of freeway.

>The reason we have people in airplane mode was there was a fear of detonating devices remotely with a cell phone after someone rigged a bomb to get this, a cell phone

Citation, please.

This is repeatedly quoted, but there's no official source, or... to be honest... any vaguely reasonable logic behind it. You think a terrorist is going to be at home building a bomb and getting really disappointed when United announces that they're going to ask you to use airplane mode or they'll threaten to have you arrested after the flight they intend to blow up lands? How TF does that make sense?

Most GPS receivers are receive-only. Seems that some use very low power transmitters to clean up/convert signals, but those are seriously weak. A decent number of airlines already allow them.

The issue may be that there's a difference between "GPS" which is technically a strictly-receiver service (your phone never talks to the satellites, only maybe mumbles to itself) and "Location Services" that frequently mixes GPS with cell-based location estimates (which are at least trying to actively talk to cell towers).

In LTE, the antennas have a fairly significant downward angle since every cell uses the same set of channels as every other cell. Before LTE, there would be a frequency reuse pattern, so another cell a few miles away would be using the same spectrum. So even then they are aimed somewhat down rather than at the horizon, as you said. But with LTE it's much more significant.

Charge you money for roaming outside of you standard coverage plan. If you can beat the roaming charges by maintaining an in-area tower longer...they feel cheated.

Does anyone even switch their phone to airplane mode? I don't remember the last time I did that - must be over a decade lol.

>Honestly I don’t travel via planes that much prob like 4-5 times a year.

That's significantly more than most people. "Not that much" my ass, lol

Interesting. I love learning about this stuff; I was definitely told as a kid it would mess with the plane’s systems and cause problems. I wonder where that myth got started?

I remember in the 90s being told I had to turn off my Gameboy during takeoff/landing, which was ridiculous on every conceivable level.

I’ll freely admit there’s lots I don’t know about technology. Its a big field after all. But Im interested in it and like to learn more, so that’s why I’m here. I imagine there are a number of people who are here for reasons other than wanting to feel superior.

I think that was because it was too hard to determine what electronic devices had any sort of radio communication in them for the flight attendants, so they just made everyone turn everything off.

pretty obvious he meant most on a plane connect to sat, most in general connect to fiber

That's ridiculous. You should be able to go from one of their towers to the next from one end of the country to the other.

Much like data caps of now, they were an invented problem and they charged for the "solution". In reality when you went on someone else's network "roaming" the telecoms charged each other less than your carrier charged you for borrowing that usage.

Analogue cellphones would interfere with the ILS back in the day. Planes are complicated. No one could guarantee that any kind of radio transmotting device would 100% not interfere. So out of an abundance of caution it was banned for a longtime.

There is an actual air ambulance accident in North Carolina where the flight nurse turned on the cell to contact the ground ambulance on short final in nasty weather. The radar track showthe aircraftveering off at the moment the cell was turned on and hitting a hangar next to the runway. Probably caused by cell unterference making the ILS needles veer off.

Digital cell phones with narrow band transmitters and airplane mode have mostly eliminated that threat, but the FCC still has rules.

However the new 5G cell towers interfere. This is because manufacturers of avionics were lazy, and didnt make their recievers discrete enough, so they get intereference from frequency bands adjacent to the ones use by 5G towers. As a result we have to comply with reduced minima at a lot of airports with 5G towers nearby.

This is all greatly simplified. Here are some links.

https://www.faa.gov/5g

https://ntrs.nasa.gov/api/citations/20050232846/downloads/20050232846.pdf

Ill tryto find the crash report for the one, but Its the only actual crash I know of and it was a speculative cause as there were no flight data recorders.

Aviation regulation moves slow because of safety implications.

Really ? I though it was jamming serval approach and takeoff systems which not only do not operate on the same frequency but are also now digital.

Unless you are landing at an old airport like Miegs Field, which literally no longer exists, you don’t need to worry about being jammed.

I'm not trusted with over 100ml of liquid incase I try and hijack the plane, but they trust us to take our phones on board... What does that tell ya.

[removed]

As the great cabin pressure once pointed out, if they were actually a problem, they wouldn’t let you keep them.

The exception about cruise ships is important though, if you end up connected to a maritime network you absolutely will be charged.

For the uk at least, that is also changing next year.

So 9/11 was your fault? Motherfu-

Here comes the tiktok brigade making flights an even worse experience than they already are.

The title of the article is highly misleading. The point is that the EU will allow a device on board of the aircraft that facilitates the use of 5G aboard by mobile phone users. It's not about airplane mode at all.

Airplane mode hasn't been required since 2014: https://www.easa.europa.eu/en/newsroom-and-events/news/easa-allows-electronic-devices-remain-and-connected-throughout-flight

The article is about the EU and in the EU, the rules were already changed in 2014: https://www.easa.europa.eu/en/newsroom-and-events/news/easa-allows-electronic-devices-remain-and-connected-throughout-flight

I hate to break it to you but it wasn't really required anyways: https://www.easa.europa.eu/en/newsroom-and-events/news/easa-allows-electronic-devices-remain-and-connected-throughout-flight