Comments
AudibleNod t1_iuwirht wrote
This is what happens when your enemy writes your story. You end up looking like a little piss baby when you don't get your way.
[deleted] t1_iuwjhqd wrote
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EndoExo t1_iuwk6n8 wrote
A lot of Herodotus is just him repeating stories he heard from random people, so it's possible this was a legend among the Greeks at the time. It the modern equivalent of your friend repeating a story he heard at the bar from a "guy who knows a guy".
HardPawns t1_iuwl53j wrote
The Greeks hated Xerxes, wouldn’t be surprised if any of them made up stories about what a complete moron and clown he was.
LawrenceMoten21 t1_iuwleja wrote
Todd, that’s good! You tell that mean ocean!
Vlacas12 t1_iuwlfrz wrote
A lot of Herodotus is simply Greek propaganda. It's not just him repeating stories, but him using specific stories (he didn't let the truth come in the way of a good story) to paint his own views in the medium, especially the construction of a Greek Identity and using other people as a "mirror" to write about the Greeks (This second part is the remarkable contribution of François Hartog’s landmark work Le Miroir d’Hérodote. Essai sur la représentation de l’autre).
Magnethius t1_iuwnffa wrote
The sea is always right.
Jokerang t1_iuwnr3w wrote
> The Greeks hated Xerxes
Not really, about 80% of the Greek speaking world sided with the Persians during the wars. It's only later that Athens made it out so that they were defending Greek freedom.
Peetwilson t1_iuwo5v0 wrote
Well that's fucking stupid and Xerxes is stupid for ordering it. Take that Xerxes.
greybruce1980 t1_iuwoqbp wrote
Maybe? I mean, the rich and powerful are often fucking crazy because they don't have the same checks and balances of reality to contend with like you or I do.
legendoflink3 t1_iuwponi wrote
This is the equivalent of people in certain States shooting at Hurricanes.
AnthrallicA t1_iuwq3k7 wrote
Yeah, I saw that episode of Squidbillies 😅
ridemooses t1_iuwqnbv wrote
This is some North Korea shit.
scubamaster t1_iuwsakf wrote
It’s not the lash that the sea fears. But his divine power.
ManyConclusion t1_iuwtg3y wrote
I really respect this level of pettiness.
According-Classic658 t1_iuwtx0n wrote
The guy who built the bridge really lucked out
DreiKatzenVater t1_iuwtyna wrote
This according to a Greek writer. I’m sure they weren’t biased
Crepuscular_Animal t1_iuwud87 wrote
Herodotus writes mostly positive things about the Persians. He says their laws are wise, and that they abhor lies and criticize Greeks for their tendency of scamming each other.
UsrnameInATrenchcoat t1_iuwv986 wrote
"You like that you filthy slut? Yeahhh you do.."
Atleast that's what I imagine
Natomiast t1_iuwwkqg wrote
Xerxes said comb the desert, we ask how high?
RyokoKnight t1_iuwy5ln wrote
Very likely fictional, though the Persians did believe in nature deities and thus, if it did happen, the Persians would have been trying to punish the diety of the water/storm rather than the water itself. The Persians would have believed because Xerxes had a divine right to rule such deities of nature would have been as slaves and thus should be subservient to their "owner".
Again though the events as described are likely gross exaggerations of what occurred, if anything in fact happened at all. It is more likely the Greeks were playing up a lesser event like the Persians formally admonishing any potential diety that would stand in their way, or perhaps making the whole story up to mock a hated rival and underscore the perceived tyranny they felt kneeling to the Persians would bring.
KypDurron t1_iux7scz wrote
That's fine, but you can't say that second- or third-hand accounts from a biased source are likely to be accurate just because they fit with what you expect to hear about someone.
KypDurron t1_iux7yb0 wrote
Ancient Greek equivalent of confusing an SNL impression with a politician's actual statements.
doctor-rumack t1_iuxbmns wrote
Mayor West also did this in Family Guy.
The_Dog_of_Sinope t1_iuxdil1 wrote
You know, perfectly normal shit.
The_Dog_of_Sinope t1_iuxdu7r wrote
It might not be a parable about his level of clownship. It might be a warning that Xerxes would punish the oceans if they quarreled with him. Or "he will fuck you up in ways you never thought sane or rational."
MysticSheep42 t1_iuxfac6 wrote
Wait... she didn't? Lol 😆
Educational_Ad7978 t1_iuxgh8r wrote
Sounds like a fucking idiot.
mcmanaman17 t1_iuxh69s wrote
Sounds like the type of gossip disgruntled soldiers would come up with while drunk on a miserable campaign.
Sks44 t1_iuxk67q wrote
“We ain’t found shit!” -The Immortals
digitalscale t1_iuxree3 wrote
King Canute: Sup guys?
semiomni t1_iuxrzec wrote
And for all we know it could be a positive legend. Like it sounds super silly to us, but maybe people who would sacrifice animals for a good harvest would find this story completely reasonable.
The_Great_Evil_King t1_iuxs2ha wrote
There is a tempest in me.
Formber t1_iuxu4j9 wrote
Floridaman isn't people.
Lord_of_Barrington t1_iuy0q70 wrote
Everyone knows the only way to hurt a hurricane is to nuke it
Foxtrone9 t1_iuy1mn9 wrote
Xerxes was enraged and had those responsible for building the bridges beheaded. Not so lucky.
DarkestDusk t1_iuy2lza wrote
Yeah seriously, does he have ANY idea how much Hit Points(equivalent) that the Ocean has? It is literally like dust stabbing you with daggers it could hold within its own hands, imperceptible.
WhoaItsCody t1_iuy2ro6 wrote
Nero had his army attack the sea as well.
PunctualPoops t1_iuyaf6c wrote
Todd, that’s good! TELL THAT MEAN OCEAN
Aperture_T t1_iuyazgf wrote
Caligula?
CarelessHisser t1_iuybart wrote
Just imagine how much of ancient history is just blatant hearsay and other BS.
We've only the most vague idea wtf happened before a certain period in history. Even then, after writing became more common, we are still partially in the dark because of bias. Unbiased accounts of historical events are still a relatively new, and rare thing.
<.< Half of our understanding of human history could be lies and no one would be any the wiser.
kahran t1_iuybt0a wrote
It's a lifestyle
Leafs-and-Leaves t1_iuyeydb wrote
SCISSOR ME XERCES
tifftafflarry t1_iuyh4o7 wrote
I ain't ever seen britches take such a whoopin' before.
automatedalice268 t1_iuyhlwj wrote
Recent research shows that Herodotos is more accurate than once thought of. Archeologists use his work as an aide to pinpoint sites they can dig.
EDIT: I like to add that Herodotos travelled and visited many of the places he described. Including Egypt. The Egypt chapter in Histories is a very interesting source for Egyptologists and enthousiasts.
AshenTao t1_iuyi1qz wrote
Wasnt there a story about a roman(?) army being ordered to attack and stab the sea as an hostile act against Poseidon as well? Been a while since I read it. In our latin classes we translated both fictive stories and real stories.
Blutarg t1_iuyi9lb wrote
If I were a king I could totally see myself doing this. Heck, I could see myself giving my computer a few lashes sometimes.
Blutarg t1_iuyidgl wrote
It's the only way to be sure.
Dance__Commander t1_iuyii3d wrote
Do you mean little piss baby Greg Abbott?
Human_2468 t1_iuyiuzf wrote
I'm sure that Esther had some problems being married to him. :)
thatguy425 t1_iuyjgrw wrote
Whiplashes? Like he had the sea rear ended by an automobile?
thatguy425 t1_iuyjlbm wrote
Shooting a gun is fun, hurricane would be a perfect excuse.
[deleted] t1_iuyjr8d wrote
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Echo71Niner t1_iuyjrbj wrote
>Herodotus
interesting read here.
​
>his report of giant Indian ants, "midway between dogs and foxes in size", who dig up gold; or the griffins "who stand guard over gold" in the mountains beyond Scythia? These are the kind of stories that, while they add hugely to the enjoyment of reading The Histories, have resulted in a long tradition of dismissing Herodotus as gullible at best, and at worst a liar.
not_that_rick t1_iuyl1be wrote
And the sea never bothered humanity ever again
Far_Sided t1_iuymd0s wrote
Not really. Seutonius notes that when his soldiers threatened to mutiny, Caligula ordered his men to pick up the musculi. This can transalate to seashells/mussels, but was also the word for the huts they were living in.
The whole war with Poseidon (who is a GREEK god) and collecting the seashells as trophies probably comes from misunderstanding and specifically the Excellent (though wildly inaccurate) TV series I, Claudius or the book that inspired it.
ash_274 t1_iuymfxm wrote
Probably had a home warranty on it that didn't include coverage for damage caused by storms
Far_Sided t1_iuymjm2 wrote
>Not really. Seutonius notes that when his soldiers threatened to mutiny, Caligula ordered his men to pick up the musculi. This can transalate to seashells/mussels, but was also the word for the huts they were living in.
>
>The whole war with Poseidon (who is a GREEK god) and collecting the seashells as trophies probably comes from misunderstanding and specifically the Excellent (though wildly inaccurate) TV series I, Claudius or the book that inspired it.
Posted this above, reposting here as well.
fighterpilotace1 t1_iuyp7n5 wrote
>You end up looking like a little piss baby
Like Greg Abbott!
BigPoppaHoyle1 t1_iuyq7an wrote
Man with a sore shoulder after whipping the sea 247 times: “This is bullshit”
tripleriser t1_iuyslsm wrote
He probably just wanted to give them a beach day without actually giving them a day off
MisterHonkeySkateets t1_iuywlll wrote
He also had fetters thrown into the sea
LagerGuyPa t1_iuyz4f7 wrote
In my mind's eye, Herodotus is the Hunter S. Thompson of the Heleanic world.
retief1 t1_iuyzh44 wrote
crossedstaves t1_iuz0g5u wrote
Herodotus wasn't really into objectivity though, he did a lot to make a very moralizing point about hubris with Xerxes.
Standard_Wooden_Door t1_iuz15c1 wrote
Certain states… we all know you’re talking about Texas
mylifeispro1 t1_iuz2jil wrote
That just sounds like job security when you have your trip delayed but still gotta pay your workers
Unusual-Anteater-988 t1_iuz2pl1 wrote
>It the modern equivalent of your friend repeating a story he heard at the bar from a "guy who knows a guy".
CUUUUUURSE YOU MUSCLEEEEEE MAAAAAAAAAAAAAN!
matthew_iliketea_85 t1_iuz3h07 wrote
I'm only just listening to Dan Carlins hardcore history and in it he says there's reason to think because omens and favour of the gods was actually important in that era that it was done as a placating of fhe masses. Kinda like a see its not any god angry at us that destroyed our bridge but rhis river and well... Showed him, didn't we.
[deleted] t1_iuz4nlh wrote
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[deleted] t1_iuz62fj wrote
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CygnusX-1-2112b t1_iuz99hx wrote
Yep, the good old Enlisted News Network had been around since the first time a group larger than a room full of people decided they wanted to kill one another.
Lord0fHats t1_iuzfyib wrote
A lot of people who know of Herodotus but never read him miss this.
Herodotus came from Halicarnassus, on the Ionian coast and grew up under Persian rule. More Greeks lived in the Persian Empire than in what we now call Greece.
His account is actually pretty favorable toward the Persians in many respects. Badmouthing the Persians was an invention of latter Greeks, not Herodotus.
r4pt0r_SPQR t1_iuzg86o wrote
Seutonius was the Roman TMZ. Dude was 90% gossip and rumor.
Lord0fHats t1_iuzgda0 wrote
Per another comment;
Herodotus' account is pretty favorable toward the Persians in many respects. He sings high praises of Persian culture and art. He's not completely free of Greek biases, but he had a much more circumspect attitude on the Empire than the Athenians or the Spartans. Unsurprising since he grew up mostly under Persian rule (more Greeks lived in the Persian Empire than in what we call Greece).
Herodotus wrote narrative embellishments, but a lot of people overlook that he examined the stories he collected and cast judgements on them. Herodotus would often tell a story and then explain why he thought it was or wasn't true. People tend to only note he told the story and forget he was analyzing his sources more than they realize.
Propaganda and badmouthing the Persians wasn't quite his deal. If anything he wrote the most Persian favorable version of the history out of all the Greek writers who survived the Classical age.
Lord0fHats t1_iuzgx80 wrote
It's almost certainly a story he picked up somewhere. It's the kind of folk myth that still gets invented today about past wars. Herodotus traveled around to collect stories for his history and it's more likely many of the fanciful tales he tells were stories related to him by others rather than things he solely made up on his own.
Herodotus spends too much time casting judgement on some of the stories he tells, explaining which ones he thinks are true or false and why he thinks that, to be a mere fanatic for narrative.
DocSaysItsDainBramuj t1_iuzhs24 wrote
He’s a pilot now.
Lord0fHats t1_iuzii56 wrote
Most likely it's a parable about Persian impiety.
The Greeks, at least those from Greece, generally assumed the Persian elite to be unmanly and impious. The idea that Xerxes would whip the seas probably isn't intended to suggest his irrationality or craziness, but his rage and hubris.
Lord0fHats t1_iuziq37 wrote
There's definitely been a pushback in academic circles in favor of Herodotus as 'more reliable' rather than less. Most of it hinges on pointing out he did engage in source criticism at several points of his work (example, the size of the Persian Army was debated by Herodotus as much as modern historians), something he wouldn't do if he were solely interested in sensationalizing events.
These scholars would argue Herodotus calling some accounts into question and not others is indicative of what he honestly thought to be true.
Lord0fHats t1_iuzj7ku wrote
Quite literally, there is today a not-so-insubtantial push against over reliance of Athenian sources in Greek history. Which is inconvenient, because especially for classical and archaic Greece, nearly all our contemporary written sources are Athenian.
That said, most of it probably isn't lies. Hearsay yes. Biased yes. But even Herodotus engaged more than once in telling a story in his work and then gave a long explanation of why he didn't think it was true. The standards might have been much looser then, but there's not always an explicit reason to think ancient writers were outright lying.
They were just telling the story from their own POV, with their own sense of how the world worked and what was or wasn't true.
proposlander t1_iuzjj42 wrote
This reminds me to go back and finish the series. It’s so long…
dbear26 t1_iuzrfre wrote
Ever read The Persians by Aeschylus?
Vlacas12 t1_iuztfnt wrote
Yes, but that's my second point, that he using the Persians (especially in his account of the war between the Persians and the Scythians in the second part of the Histories) as a "mirror" for the Greeks and Greek moral ideals.
modestpump t1_iuzw7h9 wrote
Herodotus was a great npc in assassins creed Odyssey
GreatEmperorAca t1_iv027m7 wrote
Did he really?
Kelmon80 t1_iv032yk wrote
If true, that may as well have be a well-calculates "show" for his more simple-minded subjects so he's seen as doing something about the tragedy, even if he himself may have thought it was silly.
Or he was a bit bonkers.
In any case, the relationship to gods and other spiritual entities in the ancient world tended to be more direct and transactional - maybe it was generally understood that this way, some water spirit or god was shown who's boss.
Thefrugaldougal t1_iv0htqr wrote
In the Iliad, Achilles fought a river. These things mean something else to people back then.
Last_Survey_1496 t1_iv0jffd wrote
And now here we are…they’ll blame Islam, but those that know, know Iranians and Persians been having a legacy of supremacy. That’s crazy!!! 🤣
PegaLaMega t1_iv0jtox wrote
He sounds like a dumbass.
arfbrookwood t1_iv0kqf5 wrote
Bridge architects be like yeah take that
sandtymanty t1_iv0p5c4 wrote
Why was this not in the film 300?
Frenk_preseren t1_iv0piel wrote
Yes, Caligula sent them to do it. He was mad and did many other mad things.
Apprehensive-Time355 t1_iv0s5je wrote
The sea is always right
robi4567 t1_iv0wael wrote
Well was there a storm like that later. Maybe we are doing it wrong.
WhoaItsCody t1_iv0ww3z wrote
I remember learning about Nero in school, but our teacher was probably just telling us “crazy emperor stories.
This one specifically I’m assuming, has been attributed to more than one emperor.
LooksAtClouds t1_iv0xttj wrote
This is the same technique I used with my children when they tripped on a chair leg, or hit something by accident and started crying. I would address the offending chair (or whatever), shake my finger at it and tell it how bad it was, then tell it it would have to be punished and put it in the corner, or tell it it couldn't talk to anyone for the rest of the day, or whatever ridiculous "punishment" I could come up with. Always got the child laughing instead of crying.
Far_Sided t1_iv2ro3o wrote
LOL, SO true. But at least he's A source. Sadly, we don't have Claudius' history of the Julii but we think maybe Seutonius drew from it? Some modicum of truth is better than a vacuum.
r4pt0r_SPQR t1_iv2svsu wrote
I continue to hold out hope that some of the Herculaneum scrolls can be read with future tech, and that some of them may have more lost history.
herbw t1_iv6vpep wrote
Then unable to replace the bridge builders..... No wonder he lost. Stupid is as stupid does.
herbw t1_iv6vthd wrote
That pun doesn't work in Persian.
ShalmaneserIII t1_ivmmvi8 wrote
Symbolic actions. Kind of like when women would burn their bras for feminism.
ShalmaneserIII t1_ivmnp88 wrote
Herodotus was born around 484 BC. During the Achaemenid dynasty, around that time, the Persian empire had 44% of the world's population.
The Greek poleis were scrappy little states on the outside of the largest empire (relatively to share of global population) the world has ever seen. It's inevitable that a lot of what they did and thought was going to be done in relation to that huge empire just to the East. "Yeah, Persia's basically what civilization is, we should acknowledge that and imitate parts of it" or "Yeah, Persia kind of sucks, look at all this bad stuff they do, we should do our own thing in contrast to them."
You see how this works nowadays, too.
antigonemerlin t1_iw1wqbn wrote
You know, this makes the prison commandant's realization make that much more sense in Lieutenant Kije, when they had to whip an invisible and formless prisoner and march him to Siberia (for context, Lieutenant Kije is a soldier created by a clerical error and used as a scapegoat).
"Oh, an affair of state" he said upon realizing why the prisoner being presented to him, well, wasn't there. Stuff like this must've happened all the time.
Jugales t1_iuwi7wf wrote
I read that as 'britches' and was like "bro just get new pants"