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leadchipmunk t1_ixyyeqr wrote

>There is no trigger to punch or button to push. The only way for the shot to break is for the shooter to slowly pull back until, once a certain amount of tension builds up, the bow releases—always to the surprise of the shooter.

How is it a surprise? It releases at the same tension every single time, so you know where you have to pull back to for it to release. Once you get used to your bow and release, it'll be just as consistent and expectable as pulling a trigger/pushing a button.

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Raeandray t1_ixz4are wrote

My guess is its more about pulling on the bow as the focus instead of pulling a trigger.

The tension doesn’t make sense. Everyone uses compound bows, so there’s less tension at full draw than while you’re pulling back. It sounds like with these releases you draw, aim, then pull back until it fires at some point.

That honestly sounds much more smooth to me. One of the hardest issues with a standard release is eliminating that slight jerk when you pull the trigger with your finger. Pulling straight back there’s no jerk at all.

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Zgoos t1_ixz8o4h wrote

Compounds have less tension at full draw, but if you pull a little beyond full draw, the tension increases again very quickly. It's called the "back wall". Pulling into that back wall, the increasing tension is what activates the release.

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Raeandray t1_ixza8lz wrote

Looking into it further, it looks like the "back wall" is a bit of a preference. Some compound bows have it, others don't. Regardless I've hunted with a compound bow since I was strong enough to pull back the legal weight limit and had no idea this was a thing. Thanks for the info!

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Hammer_Thrower t1_ixzx6vf wrote

There's always a wall, otherwise you could just keep pulling. It is when the cams are fully extended and you're actually pulling against the arms. What is adjustable is where a shooter's favored draw point is relative to the wall.

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randomLOUDcommercial t1_ixzycir wrote

I mean there are hard walls and soft walls that may be the “preference” you are thinking of? But that is dependent on the bow not the archers (2 archers with the same compound couldn’t have a hard and soft wall). Draw length is adjustable (with in a range) on compounds but is based off your anchor.

Tension releases have a mechanism to “feel” the change in back tension as you squeeze your shoulders together when anchored. (Think of holding a pen skinny ways in between your shoulder blades). That motion creates tension which rotates your hand slightly and that is what causes the release to fire. Otherwise it would release as the archer was drawing due to the physics behind a compound making the heaviest part the initial pull.

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mkultra50000 t1_iy3vopd wrote

Turns out just awareness of back tension releases are the only actual surprise.

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DonutCola t1_iy0k0xr wrote

Wait do you actually shoot or are you literally learning about archery as you argue? Cause you’re definitely a piece of shit if you just pick fights and then try to figure out why after the fact.

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Raeandray t1_iy0vb0r wrote

First, I don't think I've picked a fight with anyone. Second, you seem to have not read the part of my comment where I said:

> I've hunted with a compound bow since I was strong enough to pull back the legal weight limit

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Tarnishedcockpit t1_iy0mzvd wrote

i mean, he says he has experience, so doesnt that make you a piece of shit for coming up with some lame ass excuse to diminish his argument just because he didnt know the specific words/science behind it?

Cause if so, then thatd be pretty ironic lol.

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shrubs311 t1_iy0yq7s wrote

chill the hell out. they didn't pick a fight, the "worst" thing they did was potentially missing knowledge on something they had experience with but not that specific thing. it's extremely ironic for you to accuse them of being a piece of shit when you're coming in guns blazing

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muuus t1_iy0mnz8 wrote

Seriously what the fuck is this guy on about.

He is totally clueless but talks with 100% confidence like he is an expert on the subject.

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Raeandray t1_iy0vh9e wrote

The only thing I was unaware of is the "back wall" which I admitted. If I'm "totally clueless" on something else feel free to point it out lol. I've been shooting a compound bow since I was 12, and a practiced with a recurve before that.

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donald7773 t1_ixz5xf6 wrote

So compound bows have a set limit on the draw, or how far back you can pull it. You just pull back till there's no more pull left. There's sights to use, after that it's just practice for consistency.

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Raeandray t1_ixz66x4 wrote

Right, you’re not pulling the string further back, you’re pulling harder, which adds more tension to the release. Otherwise the tension release would never release, since there’s more tension while drawing than while holding the draw.

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could_use_a_snack t1_ixzjaxw wrote

I'm assuming this is for targets that don't move. Randomly firing arrows don't sound like a good hunting tool.

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Raeandray t1_ixzllek wrote

In my experience you don’t try to shoot a moving target if you’re actually hunting an animal. Way too hard to not hit something vital. Good hunters don’t want to wound an animal taking a subpar shot.

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frothy_pissington t1_ixznmg9 wrote

And “good hunters” seem to be a shrinking demographic...

Deer season started two weeks ago.

Guys have been filtering back to work.

So many stories about booze, drugs, hookers, 4 wheeling, guns, and wounded animals “that weren’t worth tracking”, very few stories about habitat, conservation, and a general appreciation of the outdoors as something to be enjoyed in solitude and preserved.

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froggertwenty t1_iy0dvdg wrote

You must be right. The GOOD hunters I know would not be TALKNG about the booze, drugs, and hookers. What happens at deer camp stays at deer camp.

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An_Lei_Laoshi t1_ixzo2at wrote

What's 4 wheeling? English isn't my first language

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DownstairsB t1_ixzokhr wrote

4 wheeled recreational all terrain vehicle

Edit: i love the 3 different perspectives answering this question

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shrubs311 t1_iy0z75m wrote

>Edit: i love the 3 different perspectives answering this question

yes it's hilarious, i also appreciate the person asking thanking all 3 individually

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mythslayer1 t1_ixzp2ym wrote

A massively overpowered 4 wheel machine that is ridden by drunk assholes tearing up the land.

They are not allowed on most public land because of the damage they can do.

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StoneTemplePilates t1_iy07xde wrote

Lol, sounds like you just live in the wrong part of the country for it. There are tons of places that off-road vehicles can be enjoyed responsibly and are completely legal on public land.

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mythslayer1 t1_iy4kqoi wrote

Many states do not allow 4 wheelers or utv in state forests (which is what we hunt). Federal does not either as far as I know.

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StoneTemplePilates t1_iy4p089 wrote

Ok, and many states do allow it, and in fact have designated recreational areas for just that purpose so I'm really not sure what your point is. As far as federal land, have you heard of the bureau of land management? They have literally thousands of miles of backcountry roads where you can go and drive whatever you want on.

Sounds like you're just a killjoy who has some weird issue with motorsports.

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tagrav t1_iy0v077 wrote

listening to this old guy at disc golf tell me all he keeps is the backstrap really pissed me off.

trophy hunters are fucking wankers.

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CarrotJuiceLover t1_ixzqxmi wrote

I’m going to piggyback off of u/Raeandray and say a bow in modern times is more comparable to a sniper rifle. You don’t want to shoot a moving target, you wait until you have a clear stationary target.

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could_use_a_snack t1_iy0ernp wrote

Probably should have said living target that could move. Seems like a bad idea to not have my shot happen when I want it to.

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CarrotJuiceLover t1_iy0gzj5 wrote

Well a typical archery shot takes about 5-8 seconds. You wait for a living target to stop (typically to survey food on the ground) until you have a clear shot behind the shoulder blades, through the heart and lungs. In that amount of time you can settle your shot, aim, and wait for the surprise release to go off. Keep in mind you can also adjust the sensitivity and trigger point of a surprise release device, so that it doesn’t go off too unexpectedly.

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TurChunkin t1_iy0qz5o wrote

The "surprise" part is down to a few milliseconds of difference. I use one for hunting, and killed a bull elk my first year bowhunting using this style of release!

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DonutCola t1_iy0jvri wrote

More importantly there is the same exact amount of draw force every single time the jerk is very very very much mitigated by a decent archer who is practiced. People go bow hunting still and have done it a very very very long time. This is like surgically precise shooting. Humans are pretty dang good without the hi tech stuff too. This just makes us better.

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corvidae21 t1_iy0ktvz wrote

Yep, been into archery for a long time and my instructors always said, with mechanical releases you want to put pressure on the button and pull with your back until it releases so it surprises you and you don't jerk or grip the bow in anticipation

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CarbonGod t1_iy1bl5q wrote

Everyone uses compounds? Wtf dude?

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Raeandray t1_iy1bqvk wrote

I'm talking hunting. I dont follow competitive shooting or anything like that, if they use recurve bows there?

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Spazzout22 t1_ixzglzc wrote

I believe it's surprise for the body rather than "surprise" in the standard sense. The idea is that you're doing a single motion that triggers a release rather than that motion plus an anticipatory release of the fingers/trigger pull which can cause the body to jerk. More of a "get ready and it releases on its own when it's in the right place" vs "get ready, then fire".

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mobchronik t1_ixzhehx wrote

It’s normally called a “back-tension release”, and it is typically only used in competition shooting with fixed targets. You would never use one hunting because sometimes you have to keep the bow at full draw for a period of time while you find the best shot or wait for other factors. As an archer you aren’t thinking about the tension on the string but instead the tension on your shoulder blades as you bring them together during your shot cycle. Focusing on your body during your shot cycle is what can lead to the “surprise shot”. But yes you still have a general understanding of when the bow will fire, though since there is not a trigger it is highly unlikely for you the “punch” the trigger or push/pull the bow out of alignment with your shot cycle.

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Craig_Barcus t1_iy0bv6o wrote

I use a hinge hunting. More comfortable shot cycle for me.

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mobchronik t1_iy2ci12 wrote

Nice props to you, that’s a great release but too sketch for me for hunting. I’ve got a shoulder issue and hunt a lot in below freezing temps so a shoulder twitch would make me too concerned to use it. I use a hand release, Bone Collector. Any luck this season?

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Craig_Barcus t1_iy4al0x wrote

Not this year. First time in 10 years so far

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mobchronik t1_iy93epj wrote

Yeah it’s tough out here in the northwest this year because of fires. Headed out today for 4 days, hopefully late season brings me some luck

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mfeens t1_ixzg5ph wrote

I’m not even a good archer. But the idea is that the bow going off is like an explosion and the human mind hates explosions. Your body will shrug your shoulders and close your eyes to try and prepare you for the shock of if. Those movements will make you miss at any real distance.

Again, I don’t fully understand it, but the aiming is easy. Just close one eye and hold you thumb up to any target. You brain just does it. The hard part is not messing it up once it’s aimed.

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Wrobot_rock t1_ixzql5w wrote

Don't you have to estimate and compensate for distance, wind, and elevation?

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mfeens t1_ixzs83c wrote

Hell yeah you do. So, there are lots of ways to shoot a bow and situations where you can shoot a bow. Some times people are hunting a moving target, so that’s like throwing a rock. You look at your target, big brain math happens in your head and you let it rip. That’s different from shooting a controlled shot, at say a tournament or sometimes while hunting.

When you have time to make a great shot, the distance and wind are judged and you adjust your sight if you thought you needed to. After seeing what the first arrow did you could adjust again.

But the main idea is that you think about it, set your sight or what ever, and then your mind goes back to your shot cycle. It’s way more mental than a lot of folks appreciate. Your not just trying to make the same physical movements each time, but try also thinking the same thoughts each time you shoot. Have fun with that last one haha

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Devario t1_iy03vkw wrote

You also can’t be fidgeting with the arrow when it goes off, because it’ll fuck the ballistic arch. I learned that to avoid being scared or surprised, you very slowly squeeze the trigger of once you’re locked on.

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CarrotJuiceLover t1_ixzrrnv wrote

It’s more so the fact that your mind is good at noticing patterns. This is why archers that start out don’t have target panic, but it always develops later on down the line. Once you shoot 1000 arrows your mind eventually says “when I see target I must hit button to release arrow”, because you’ve repeated the pattern over and over. It gets to a point where before you can even consciously settle your aim, your subconscious mind sees the target and instantly tells your fingers to press the release button. It’s at this point you have to find a way around your subconscious mind, and that’s why surprise releases are used.

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CarrotJuiceLover t1_ixzq6yl wrote

The difference is what actuates the release. In a standard release, you use your fingers (index or thumb) to release the arrow. The problem is that fingers are sensitive and prone to twitchy behavior, which means anticipating the shot leads to premature releases (which we call “target panic”). Your eyes see the target and it tells your twitchy fingers “release the arrow NOW or you’ll run out of time!”. Releasing with the fingers is a conscious decision that eventually becomes an unconscious one due to anxiety, leading to premature shots. A surprise release device (also called a “back tension release”) uses a different muscle group to release the arrow. You see, with a surprise release device us archers are taught to use the muscles in our backs to pull the string (specifically the rhomboid muscle). Flexing the rhomboid is a slow and steady process, since the rhomboid isn’t a twitchy muscle. So what ends up happening is we squeeze our rhomboid muscle which at some point along that flexion of the rhomboid, it triggers the surprise release aid to release the arrow. We don’t consciously know when flexing our back muscle will trigger the release, so we can just focus on the target.

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DedlySpyder t1_ixze0jz wrote

My thought is that you have a few and they can be swapped out. So you don't know which one you have

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Ibetya t1_ixzmadw wrote

It's almost as if it's for practice to get used to the shock of releasing all that force which could cause you to misfire. As your muscle memory builds, yes, you will get better at knowing exactly when that arrow will fire, but you were also training your brain for the steady release

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sam_hammich t1_ixzsed5 wrote

I mean, a jack in the box always pops out at the same point in the song right? And yet it's still surprising. But you're not pressing a button to make it activate, it happens at a point abstracted away from your direct attention. It's always worse beforehand if you slow down and try to predict when it'll happen, so you just keep going without regard for the exact moment it pops. When it pops, if you react, that reaction follows the pop instead of preceding it.

The point is that you train your body to continue with a smooth continuous motion until it lets go on its own, and you train mentally to focus on the draw instead of the release. You aren't in a position where you're anticipating opening your hand and tensing up your body to get ready for the shock.

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collonnelo t1_iy0108u wrote

At X tension it is released vs w/o the mechanism they must release optimally at around X(give or take Y). When trying to control it themselves, they attempt to reach X tension but in their attempt to do so they wince since you must purposely release the tension instead of it just having it go on its own. This wince is a reflex to an act you are trying to accomplish (purposely release the tension). This wince is bad for control.

When the surprise mechanism goes off, you still do you natural reflex, but the difference here is that the reflex occurs after the release (a consequence of the act instead of bracing for it) so that miniscule movement should not affect the trajectory as the arrow has already been released.

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StoneTemplePilates t1_iy08cj0 wrote

Ah yes, clearly you've figured out what the professionals haven't. Someone should tell them.

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designgoddess t1_iy0dwes wrote

Yes. I guess if you keep pulling back it releases eventually but part of becoming skilled is repeating the same motion as exactly as you can. You pull it the same distance to the same place. Like on the photo you pick a place you can feel like your cheek.

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kreigklinge t1_iy0njty wrote

These mechanisms don't really release at a specific tension and it's definitely not supposed to be a surprise. They release abruptly as you rotate the handle and with practice, this can make the archer much more consistent as you go from fully drawn to released in a fraction of the time you could releasing the drawn bow with your soft fingers.

When you release a bow with your fingers there is a much higher chance that you impart some force on the string (and bow) which means your arrows aren't going to fly true.

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VSMCookies t1_ixzy5x8 wrote

Its probably just a catchy name for the technique

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Albino_Bama t1_ixz3neu wrote

It didn’t explicitly say that it releases at the same level of tension every single time. In my mind there’s a small computer that will RNG an a mount of time after you’ve pulled back and then randomly releases. So still a surprise.

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basinchampagne t1_ixyzmbq wrote

Not really. That's not how muscle memory works.

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Impeccable304 t1_ixz472k wrote

How is this not how muscle memory works? Looking forward to your reply.

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basinchampagne t1_ixz5u07 wrote

I read the comment wrong, I actually agree with that last sentence.

It isn't random to an experienced archer; which of course has to do with muscle memory, as you'll probably both conciously and subconciously know when to pull the extra bit to make the arrow release. If anything, it's probably more consistent than a trigger.

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