Submitted by warb17 t3_1116ue8 in washingtondc
Comments
warb17 OP t1_j8d9gwn wrote
Some things that stick out to me:
They had the wrong person >the man who was shot does not appear to be the person who was reported to have attacked the woman.
The person wasn't armed >Police said no weapon has been recovered
They want to paint the person as deserving of police violence, even though the shooter didn't even know about the "suspected drugs" (which could just be weed) >once at the hospital, medical personnel found what he described as a “large quantity” of suspected drugs
The scenario that prompted the police search didn't even warrant lethal force >The woman who was hit with the pipe was taken to a hospital for treatment. Police said her injuries did not appear to be life-threatening.
joe_sausage t1_j8dajat wrote
That cop sure did make things better. /s
MyTornArsehole t1_j8ddvd2 wrote
"Stop reaching" case closed. What I found funny is Contee trying to plea with the woman driving the red jeep with a rear missing hubcap, "We just want to talk to you to find out what happened"
JohnJohnston t1_j8dg6fe wrote
>The scenario that prompted the police search didn't even warrant lethal force
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Situations change. If police were only allowed to respond to the exact amount of force reported on the 911 call at the time it was made there would be a lot of dead people around.
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An attack with a weapon certainly warrants some kind of force.
>Police said no weapon has been recovered
Could be in the vehicle that drove away.
>after officials had watched video from the officer’s body camera, said the man moved his hands, and the officer told him several times, “Stop reaching.” Police also said the female driver told the passenger to get out of the Jeep.
Leaving out the key detail of the story to push a certain narrative. Yes, let us ignore facts because it gives more evidence towards my worldview, that will surely convince people.
__main__py t1_j8dgcgo wrote
> The person wasn't armed
> > Police said no weapon has been recovered
Weird how you left out the second half of the sentence: "Police said no weapon has been recovered, though they noted they have not yet found the vehicle"
I'm withholding judgement until there's more information available.
Feisty_Law_3321 t1_j8dghz0 wrote
Sounds like another criminal will soon be off the street. The gunshot victim with the large quantity of illicit drugs should be held criminally accountable as well.
MyTornArsehole t1_j8dh4z8 wrote
I agree with you, the reality is the police said "stop reaching" case closed
FIFA95_itsinthegame t1_j8dh6aw wrote
Pretty much sums up policing. They fail to prevent a violent crime and then respond by committing a violent crime against an unrelated individual.
warb17 OP t1_j8di0kj wrote
how do you know the drugs were illicit?
how do you know the person committed any crime?
Feisty_Law_3321 t1_j8di7d2 wrote
You’re right it was probably a bottle of aspirin.
warb17 OP t1_j8dieht wrote
My point is that the original suspect wasn't reported to have a gun, he was reported to have a pipe. Presumably if this wrongfully shot man was "reaching" for something, it would've been a pipe. But we don't even know if he was reaching for anything or what the cop said, because cops lie all the time. Nothing they say can be trusted until we see the body cam footage.
It's amazing to me that you can be alive here in 2023 with the tens of thousands of documented cases of police overreacting with lethal force and give them any benefit of the doubt.
warb17 OP t1_j8diyw3 wrote
it's amazing that you think this is sufficient for a person to be shot.
do you think you deserve to be shot when you go over the speed limit in your car? that's more dangerous and criminal than what this man did.
warb17 OP t1_j8dj6kd wrote
sure, if they find a gun in the car and the body cam footage shows that the man pointed the gun at the officer, then i'll revise my opinion.
but there are thousands of cases where police have shot someone with no provocation at all and then lie about it afterwards, so my priors are to assume the man was actually unarmed.
JohnJohnston t1_j8djhsh wrote
> Presumably if this wrongfully shot man was "reaching" for something, it would've been a pipe.
Apparently it's a well known fact that people can only carry one weapon at a time. TIL.
>It's amazing to me that you can be alive here in 2023 with the tens of thousands of documented cases of police overreacting with lethal force and give them any benefit of the doubt.
Couldn't care less about what amazes you or not. I'm countering your narrative, not saying the police are infallible or that this was guaranteed a justified shooting. You haven't seen the video either.
However, given that the chief of police knows in this day and age the bodycam footage will be released, I doubt he is making up the fact that the person was reaching for things, refused to stop reaching for something, and probably made some movement to his pockets/under the seat after being repeatedly told to stop. There are many such videos of this happening.
[deleted] t1_j8dkej8 wrote
Police kill about 1000 americans per year. Thats before you count unarmed/unjustified killings.
You could save more lives by reducing national sodium intake by 1 percent.
Theyre unrelated but its important to have perspective.
warb17 OP t1_j8dl0hj wrote
lol you're living a delusion.
did you read the initial report that the Memphis police filed after the Tyre Nichols murder? they knew that bodycam footage would likely get out eventually and they lied through their teeth. if they'll lie about that they'll lie about anything. it's called damage control and getting ahead of the narrative.
warb17 OP t1_j8dljj5 wrote
the point is that "drugs" is a convenient excuse for police brutality.
the war on drugs was a racist policy from the start, cops plant drugs on people, and even if they guy was carrying drugs we don't know what they were. and then on top of that regardless of the criminality of the drugs, it's included in the article in a way that's meant to bias the reader against the shooting victim and to partially justify the cop's actions. even though the possession of drugs is not a violent offense and provides no justification for attempted murder.
question_sunshine t1_j8dm78y wrote
Look, the Supreme Court straight up said it's not their job to prevent crime and somehow we as Americans just collectives said "oh, okay" instead of pushing our leaders to change the rules/training and maybe make it their job.
sumpdiddlyump_ t1_j8dmbdl wrote
> It's amazing to me that you can be alive here in 2023 with the tens of thousands of documented cases of police overreacting with lethal force and give them any benefit of the doubt.
This is just bad statistics. The majority of lethal force incidents happen in cases where the suspect was armed with a gun. The second most common situation is where the suspect is armed with a knife. The third is where the suspect was using a vehicle as a weapon.
That doesn’t excuse incidents where lethal force is incorrectly used, but if you actually care about that problem, then you shouldn’t be painting with such a broad brush. When you use phrases like “it’s amazing to me” and use bad stats, it leads me to believe you’re just engaging in performative outrage.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/investigations/police-shootings-database/
[deleted] t1_j8dmc15 wrote
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warb17 OP t1_j8dmsm5 wrote
then let's do both lol
the difference though is that police & their violence are a major means by which oppression is conducted. police violently enforce laws that contribute to racism, pollution, poverty, and more. police violently suppress protest against those laws. and because the government depends on police to fill those roles, the government tends to look the other way when police do shit like this.
government gets more corrupt when it has a militia it can use to suppress the public's discontent. if we want a truly accountable government, we need to get rid of the police as they currently exist.
__main__py t1_j8dn1hs wrote
I'd recommend you read the MPD general order around the use of force. Again, once we see the body cam footage we will be able to determine if the victim was actively threatening the officer, the driver of the car, or someone else. Probably best to just withhold judgement until we do.
__main__py t1_j8dn5z0 wrote
Oh sorry, I responded to the wrong comment. My bad.
warb17 OP t1_j8dn8ub wrote
you know, that's a much fairer critique than others have offered. like i said in another post though, my priors are to disbelieve the police. so if they use soft language to say they might've made a mistake, i'm gonna assume they really did make a mistake.
__main__py t1_j8dni7d wrote
> Presumably if this wrongfully shot man was "reaching" for something, it would've been a pipe
There's absolutely no reason to assume that. You assume that the officer was still looking for the original suspect, when it is entirely possible that he arrived at the scene and found a completely different incident.
> But we don't even know if he was reaching for anything or what the cop said, because cops lie all the time
This might shock you but criminals lie too! Except cops wear bodycams, so we'll see.
Turbo2x t1_j8dnojq wrote
We should hire more of them! People need to know if a crime happens, a cop will show up and shoot an unrelated person! That's how consequences work /s
Turbo2x t1_j8dnrze wrote
You know the situation is bad when even the Washington Post is having a hard time justifying the actions of a police officer.
FIFA95_itsinthegame t1_j8do5wa wrote
The problem was ever expecting them to prevent crime in the first place. That has never been their purpose.
If firefighters in this country went around starting more fires than they put out, the rational response wouldn’t be more training/rules.
warb17 OP t1_j8dp53s wrote
a knife is rarely sufficient cause for a shooting. even a gun isn't necessarily sufficient cause.
the Post link is paywalled for me, but looking at the Guardian's database for 2016, half of those killed by police had a firearm. i don't think all of those were likely justified uses of lethal force because sometimes the killed person never fires their weapon, but lets assume they were all justified. That's about 500 people per year killed without cause.
i don't have stats on hand for how many times police use lethal force without actually killing the person, but i think it's reasonable to say it's at least the same frequency, if not twice or thrice as frequent. so that's 1,000 instances of unjustified lethal force, conservatively, per year. so we hit 10,000 in a decade or less of policing. if we're less conservative, that's 10,000 in 5-7 years.
MyTornArsehole t1_j8dqtzk wrote
No, but tell that to the USADA and a jury. Case closed.
Evening_Chemist_2367 t1_j8dqwxy wrote
Seems like a situation with multiple sketchy characters but drug possession and not complying with the officer does not warrant shooting. I await bodycam video.
warb17 OP t1_j8dr0cp wrote
then you don't really think this person should've been shot either. you just enjoy feeling more powerful than someone else.
warb17 OP t1_j8dr5bh wrote
well, at least we agree that cops lie.
MyTornArsehole t1_j8dr6t0 wrote
Hilarious take, I'm at the dog park rn ttyl
warb17 OP t1_j8drt47 wrote
JohnJohnston t1_j8dsb70 wrote
> then i'll revise my opinion.
Come on now, be honest at least. We both know that won't happen.
warb17 OP t1_j8dsfdx wrote
it certainly would. maybe you're just projecting.
theman_bearpig t1_j8dsl4e wrote
do you agree that criminals lie as well?
[deleted] t1_j8dsyg8 wrote
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warb17 OP t1_j8dt338 wrote
didn't i just say that?
>we agree that cops lie
theman_bearpig t1_j8duozr wrote
let me help you out here with your reading comprehension. you said “we agree that cops lie” and yes, I agree. however, nowhere is the word “criminal” stated in that sentence.
now one more time, do you agree that criminals(the people causing the police response) lie as well?
BrightThru2014 t1_j8dww2l wrote
The facts, as they currently stand do not look great for MPD. BUT PLEASE I am once again asking for people to wait for more details to come out before jumping to conclusions about who was at fault and what happened.
Turbo2x t1_j8dx5b6 wrote
It's a classic ex post facto justification. The cop shot a bystander... but it's okay, because he had drugs on him! Of course, ignoring the fact that police lie literally all the time you can't just shoot someone and hope it works out later. That's not how the law works.
thebenron t1_j8dy0qi wrote
> Leaving out the key detail of the story to push a certain narrative. Yes, let us ignore facts because it gives more evidence towards my worldview, that will surely convince people
That's not a fact. That is the account of what happened given by the police. Police lie all the time.
damnatio_memoriae t1_j8dy6s9 wrote
it could very well be weed. and even if it's not, possessing drugs is hardly a legitimate reason to shoot someone or lock someone up. we learned that decades ago.
mr_grission t1_j8e08jq wrote
This isn't fair, not all cops are like this. Some will disinterestedly write up a report for you that never goes anywhere.
under_psychoanalyzer t1_j8e0d9w wrote
It's a description of body cam footage that's admitted as evidence and will probably be released publicly at some point. It's as factual as anything else in the article.
[deleted] t1_j8e0xzm wrote
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DrunkWoodchuck t1_j8e1rq1 wrote
Let’s be honest, most will hear the call come in and then immediately get back to their candy crush high score.
DeySeeMeRolling t1_j8e4qcq wrote
Bad analogy. It would be like fire trucks circling your neighborhood 10 times a day saying “just making sure there isn’t a fire”
I don’t want a cop hassling me on suspicion of me committing a crime. Maybe the Supreme Court is acknowledging that just like the fire trucks only responding after they get a call, maybe the police should be like that too.
truce_m3 t1_j8e5d3m wrote
What is reading that general order going to prove?
truce_m3 t1_j8e5h1c wrote
You're saying it's "case closed" that the man deserved to be shot?
truce_m3 t1_j8e5mh8 wrote
Always safe to assume the police were jumpy, acted irrationally, escalated the situation, and were at fault. You're not gonna go broke making that bet.
paulHarkonen t1_j8e912j wrote
This is where you've lost me. I was with you on the assumptions of incompetence and concerns with the level of force used, but this is where you've taken reasonable concerns into the territory of unreasonable.
The difference between a lethal blow from a pipe or knife and a non-lethal one is the point of impact and luck. Assaulting someone with a pipe (or any other weapon) is a potential justification for lethal force. While guns are the second easiest way to kill someone, that doesn't make knives and other weapons any less lethal, especially when someone has already proven their willingness to use it for violence.
The officer in question clearly screwed up here and there should be a thorough (ideally independent) investigation of how and why, probably ending with the officer's termination (unless they can come up with a damned good explanation). That doesn't mean that lethal force is unreasonable against future armed criminals, especially when they have already used those weapons.
paulHarkonen t1_j8e98lq wrote
They believe all cops are criminals.
FkDavidTyreeBot_2000 t1_j8e9ipc wrote
There's the bad faith
__main__py t1_j8eahuh wrote
Do you think being acerbic towards strangers on the internet helps sway them towards your viewpoint in any way whatsoever?
BrightThru2014 t1_j8eg8bi wrote
Yeah but it's not always the case, we have plenty of contrary examples.
djslarge t1_j8egqjt wrote
They’re the exceptions When in doubt, expect cops to be irrational
joe_sausage t1_j8etvhy wrote
You think if someone’s coming at you with a pipe and you have enough time to shoot them, we haven’t figured out anything less destructive and less lethal than that, in 2023, that could keep you and the suspect both alive?
That’s just silly.
JohnJohnston t1_j8eueu1 wrote
Not attacking people with a pipe would also keep them alive.
joe_sausage t1_j8eujiu wrote
[deleted] t1_j8ew42k wrote
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Deep_Stick8786 t1_j8fj7vn wrote
It was cocaine, they stated later. Also the driver of the car fled. Possible a weapon was dropped in there but seems like there won’t be proof of that
paulHarkonen t1_j8flmpj wrote
Actually I do think we have very few reliable non-lethal ways to stop someone intent on harming you. Most ways of stopping them reliably pose a significant risk of killing them.
glopmod t1_j8fo3uk wrote
We should definitely wait until the police investigate themselves
glopmod t1_j8fo4jx wrote
Cops are fucking cowards
borg359 t1_j8gz9oe wrote
warb17 OP t1_j8gzs7f wrote
a knife could be thrown, but it's mostly a melee weapon. cops should keep a little distance and de-escalate when a knife is out, not shoot. if they can't handle that with all the training they get, they don't deserve the gun in the first place.
warb17 OP t1_j8gzu64 wrote
a silly question gets a silly answer
warb17 OP t1_j8gzxp8 wrote
where would this conversation have gone? no one asking that question has an open mind because it has an obvious answer and doesn't serve any purpose but to regain rhetorical footing.
warb17 OP t1_j8gzzoh wrote
this cop unjustly shot an unarmed man - he's a criminal
warb17 OP t1_j8h09bm wrote
the driver of the car said she fled because she was nervous - understandable after someone starts shooting
warb17 OP t1_j8h31zu wrote
the preferred term is bastards but you've got the right spirit haha
Gray_side_Jedi t1_j8hpxf6 wrote
Except he was “not complying” by continually reaching somewhere/for something in the Jeep. So of course that’s going to make the cop nervous, because there’s no idea what the guy might have been trying to reach for: Snickers bar, firearm, take your pick. You keep doing something that makes the officer nervous and potentially poses a risk to them, there’s gonna be consequences…
paulHarkonen t1_j8hrf6j wrote
Awfully tough to de-escalate with someone committed to doing violence.
Look, I applaud your belief that no one needs to die at the hands of police and I agree that policing in the US is deeply broken right now. But when you take more extreme stances and use hyperbolic examples/statements you undermine the goals of actual change.
Yes the police should reduce their use of force, yes they should improve their training to avoid these types of incidents, but also yes, sometimes lethal force is necessary to protect themselves and the public for violent people with weapons (not just guns).
__main__py t1_j8hxg3k wrote
“Ha ha I’m just kidding why are you mad bro”
warb17 OP t1_j8iotlv wrote
sorry your moral grandstanding in your last comment didn't have the effect you hoped haha
warb17 OP t1_j8ipxxb wrote
the whole point of de-escalation is to apply it to someone originally intending to do violence.
also, i haven't said that lethal force is never required, even with a knife. i've said that it's heavily overused. if my sentiments feel extreme to you, maybe you should do some more reading on police and prison abolition. this article was written by someone skeptical of police abolition and might be useful: https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2020/6/12/21283813/george-floyd-blm-abolish-the-police-8cantwait-minneapolis
paulHarkonen t1_j8ir5tp wrote
I've read quite a bit on the subject and your comment was extreme. While you're right that you didn't say "never" you did say "rarely" and then used that stance to justify why it is unjustified when dealing with a suspect that had already used the weapon.
Again, I understand the concerns. Police need to be heavily regulated, on camera 24/7, reduced funding that is redirected toward mental health and social welfare resources. I'm onboard. The whole system needs to be completely restructured from the top to bottom.
Your stance and hyperbole here hampers that goal. Sometimes we do need police armed and prepared to use lethal force. Someone utilizing a potentially lethal weapon is one of those times. Do they need better training? Yes. Do they need more oversight? Yes. Should they be locked up in cases of misuse of force (such as shooting unarmed people)? Yes. Does that mean lethal force is unjustified when dealing with suspects wielding weapons other than firearms? No.
warb17 OP t1_j8ivcb7 wrote
a person with a knife is generally a threat that can be contained and so as a general practice i'm going to default to assuming that the police acted irresponsibly if they shot the person.
i genuinely appreciate that you are willing to consider some reforms; we have some common ground there. i don't mean this in an antagonizing way but please keep in mind that my stance is not reform of police - it's abolition - so i'm not surprised if you feel like my stance is somewhat at odds with yours, because it is.
have you seen this pdf? if you haven't, it's a great tool for thinking about reforms that do or do not move towards abolition. you've mentioned some of the things in green, and so like i said, we do have common ground.
but my position is that policing and prisons as we know them are fundamentally problematic institutions and our aim should be to build a society free of them.
paulHarkonen t1_j8iwft1 wrote
I think your stance is self destructive and not only does it result in worse outcomes but advocating for it undermines the possibility of improvement. So yes, I am certainly at odds with that stance.
warb17 OP t1_j8ix5v1 wrote
well, at least we can advocate for reduced funding for MPD together and get those funds redirected to social services.
[deleted] t1_j8jtov2 wrote
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Dapper-Print9016 t1_j90s8vw wrote
OP is just a rabble-rousing propagandist using bad faith arguments and made-up statistics, no need to dive into the comments too far.
[deleted] t1_j912o26 wrote
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MarkinDC24 t1_j914nfj wrote
When public safety, human lives, and larger institutional narratives are at play, we should follow the facts, and not our assumptions/feelings.
MarkinDC24 t1_j914tsh wrote
No one is saying people can not share their experiences. What we collectively can’t do, is allow our experience to obscure the facts. We need a thorough investigation of the incident. Do police forces have an OIG?
hi30100 t1_j91qaoo wrote
Sounds like the person who drove off is guilty
warb17 OP t1_j8d1yu8 wrote
The text of the article:
> A D.C. police officer shot and injured a man inside a vehicle Friday morning in the Anacostia neighborhood of Southeast Washington, according to the city’s police chief. > > The injured man was conscious when taken to a hospital for treatment, authorities said. Police said the officer was investigating a call that a man had struck a woman with a pipe, but the man who was shot does not appear to be the person who was reported to have attacked the woman. > > The shooting occurred shortly before 10 a.m. in the 1300 block of Good Hope Road SE, near the neighborhood’s main commercial strip. The officer has been placed on administrative leave during the investigation. Police said he activated his body camera. > > D.C. Police Chief Robert J. Contee III said officers responded to the call about the woman being assaulted and were looking for the assailant. > > He said one officer saw a man get into the passenger seat of a burgundy-colored Jeep that was parked on the street. Contee said the officer asked the man to exit the car, and the man refused. > > The chief, speaking after officials had watched video from the officer’s body camera, said the man moved his hands, and the officer told him several times, “Stop reaching.” Police also said the female driver told the passenger to get out of the Jeep. > > Contee said the officer fired his gun, striking the man. The chief said he did not know where the man was struck. He said the officer got the man out of the vehicle and handcuffed him as the female driver took off. > > Contee said police are looking for the driver and the Jeep, which is missing a rear hubcap. “We just want to talk to her and find out everything that happened,” Contee said. > > The police chief said once at the hospital, medical personnel found what he described as a “large quantity” of suspected drugs on the wounded man’s body. Police said no weapon has been recovered, though they noted they have not yet found the vehicle. > > April Cole, a mental health counselor at the nonprofit Prestige Community Resources, a block from the shooting, said violence has become all too routine. > > “It’s like a normal day,” Cole said. “We people have become accustomed. But it should not be. It should not be. It should not be.” > > Police said many people were in the area when the shooting occurred, and they urged anyone with video or photographs to contact investigators. The department has five business days to release the name of the officer who fired and publish video from his body camera, provided the victim consents to its release. > > The woman who was hit with the pipe was taken to a hospital for treatment. Police said her injuries did not appear to be life-threatening. > > Friday’s shooting was the first by a D.C. officer this year. Police said D.C. officers shot five people in 2022, three of them fatally.