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solidrecommendations t1_jb0s3us wrote

Cleveland park restaurant/retail has sort of been dying a slow death for years (hopefully that reverses) … my guess it lacks the volume needed for a coffee shop to be profitable with the high rents in the area

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chrisk018 t1_jb0tt84 wrote

They have had like two or three places fail in the past 20 years.

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mentel42 t1_jb0xba6 wrote

Sounds like a business opportunity for you, good luck

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cho_bits t1_jb0yk1b wrote

There used to be a Starbucks where Cracked is. I feel like a neighborhood that can’t support a Starbucks can’t support any coffee shop, but maybe that’s too cynical a take. The Van Ness Starbucks is always busy and that’s definitely a quieter neighborhood.

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lizziegrace10 t1_jb12o3c wrote

I think Firehook actually had a good business but closed due to the landlord raising the rent a ton. Another small coffee shop would probably do well.

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9throwaway2 t1_jb146kn wrote

Cars (with an assist with 'historic preservation' killed Cleveland Park. Cleveland park has so much going for it; 5 min from the central core of DC, on top a perfectly viable heavy rail subway line, and next to gorgeous parks and amenities. So why does retail die there?

It all comes down to the development of their retail core and the interaction with Connecticut Ave. CT Ave is one of 3-4 main thoroughfares that are essentially full-fleged 6 lane highways for MD commuters. Highways in cities are like drains; it sucks away retail investment and kills the streetscape. I don't feel safe crossing CT ave to get a coffee.

The assist is from historical preservation; we preserves things like parking lots over things like parks.

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sojournearth t1_jb162ih wrote

Haven't been over there in a while but if there isn't anything new in the former St. Arnold's (RIP) I feel like that would be a great place for a cafe/study spot.

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mimaiwa t1_jb17lm5 wrote

There is Saku Saku which has a a small storefront next to where Al Volo was. They sell espresso drinks and Japanese/French pastries

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leagle89 t1_jb193jo wrote

I can’t say for sure, but I get the sense that CP rents are higher than pretty much any comparable neighborhood in upper NW. which seems completely counterintuitive…I would assume that rents would roughly reflect the market. You’d think rents would generally hover around the upper limit of what businesses can/are willing to pay. But it seems like high rents are consistently driving CP businesses out of business. I have no idea why developers keep rents at a level that basically ensures there will be no steady business…you’d think steadily collecting slightly lower rents would be better than not collecting higher rents. But hey, what do I know?

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9throwaway2 t1_jb195cy wrote

Less nimbyism. More new development. Look at cityridge. 1000 new apts. instant customers. We have new developments which gave us wegmans, target, and trader joes. All came with hundreds of new apartments and condo. Btw, all were fought over, but the nimbys (led by the current chair of the DC council) lost. Also Wisconsin in parts is a parking lot, not a freeway. In Georgetown it is barely two lanes. Sadly parking lots are still better for businesses than freeways.

Also the palisades is a food desert, so they all come to Wisconsin to shop.

(edit, this is for wisconsin from tenleytown south, friendship heights is dead - wisconsin there is a 8 lane highway in parts)

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randokomando t1_jb19zrh wrote

I tend to think pure, unadulterated NIMBYism is the Cleveland Park culprit. Also the street scape is an atrocious war zone and has been for half a decade. I don’t have any clue what they’ve been trying to accomplish, but that little business district on Conn has been in various stages of construction and demolition for the entire time I’ve lived here, with zero visible progress.

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celj1234 t1_jb1ahca wrote

That’s a dying part of the city for businesses

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9throwaway2 t1_jb1akhu wrote

i mean look at the shit against the macklin redevelopment. that should have been a slam dunk. (for the record, I'm on the Wisconsin corridor, we've had our share of nimbyism, but CP is third only to the palisades (anti school, kicked out the safeway) and spring valley (ok with mustard gas, but not any affordable housing)

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9throwaway2 t1_jb1b8v3 wrote

yep the problem is simple. CT ave is 6 lanes of sheer shitshow for cars. Yet the city-run survey showed that 64% of CP store customers walked/biked and 16% took transit - only 19% drove. But nearly all public spaces is for drivers and room to store their cars.

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ActuaryPersonal2378 t1_jb1kp3r wrote

I've lived in CP for 4 years now and it's kind of a bummer to feel it falling apart. I understand that could just be a feeling I have though. Hopefully this new development of the storefronts will do some good

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ActuaryPersonal2378 t1_jb1l2oh wrote

I still cannot believe that people see value in the "historic" park and shop. It's so fucking dumb and imo is one of the main drivers (no pun intended) in CP losing its charm. I've lived in the neighborhood since 2019 and I plan on staying, but whenever I'm in a cooler neighborhood I get kind of bummed that we're so behind

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embracethepale t1_jb1lcul wrote

It really is observable the effect on local business when Wisconsin widens between Georgetown and Glover Park/Cathedral Heights. But the lousiest voices you’ll hear are complaints from commuters who use Wisconsin to get out of the city and over the Key Bridge.

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ackme t1_jb1lqf5 wrote

Just do what everyone else does and get your brown liquids from Toby at CP Fine Wines & Spirits.

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werewolfjrjr t1_jb1m5rg wrote

Yeah, Lulabelle is maybe the one you're missing. Little Food Studio does coffee on weekends too. Petworth is full of coffee lol.

ETA: there's also Heat Da Spot and Call Your Mother, more Park View but still Petworth-ish.

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SadieRadler t1_jb1nd7f wrote

The new bagel shop coming to the California Tortilla location is going to have an espresso bar!

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reallyokfinewhatever t1_jb1nzf5 wrote

> I don't feel safe crossing CT ave to get a coffee.

Huh? There are like three different crosswalks with lights and crosswalk signals around the main CP strip. I've literally never felt unsafe crossing the street there.

That left turn from CT south onto Porter, however...

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Surefinewhatever1111 t1_jb1rq5q wrote

Much of that stretch of Connecticut has been circling the drain for a decade or two. Few businesses survive the vagaries of the people who live their, complain about every single thing that does open and then whine about how no businesses want to sink their money into that place.

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14u2c t1_jb1u7qq wrote

> I don't feel safe crossing CT ave to get a coffee.

I agree that large roads are detrimental to urban communities, but that is simply absurd. There are crosswalks with stop lights every block.

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acdha t1_jb1xknx wrote

Connecticut Avenue was designed to serve suburban car commuters, not residents. There’s pretty much always traffic, it’s unsafe and unpleasant to walk around with all of the speeding cars and their pollution (who wants to eat outside with 110dB of car noise?), and if you’re already driving the parking situation is a mess so you might as well keep going to the suburbs with better pricing and easier, cheaper parking. The redesign should help a lot since it’ll make it safer for the majority of customers who live in the area.

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acdha t1_jb1yei7 wrote

Yeah, but think about how long the cycle is and how you’ll be dodging people turning right or running the light. You can certainly do it but the extra hassle adds more weight than it might seem.

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snackerel t1_jb1zwxb wrote

I agree this is a little hyperbolic, but not by much. I walk a lot in this neighborhood and I don’t cross Connecticut when I don’t have to because I’ve had a lot of close calls in those intersections, particularly with people blowing red lights. Feels dangerous both as a pedestrian and as a driver.

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iindsay t1_jb218xd wrote

There was a Starbucks, and Palena, and some coffee shop in Sam's Park & Shop that also sold bagels that I forgot the name of. For some reason, they've never lasted.

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14u2c t1_jb229ll wrote

I agree, is very annoying and one of the reasons why these type of roads are bad for communities. But the idea that the area is too dangerous to support a coffee shop is inaccurate and unproductive.

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walkallover1991 t1_jb238gc wrote

Folks in the Palisades have no one to blame but themselves.

It’s always rich when I hear someone from the Palisades complain about having to drive for groceries.

Safeway was going to build a brand new store on the site of the old one with housing on top and the community said hell no and Safeway packed up…the NIMBYs won the battle but last the war.

IIRC, something similar happened in Spring Valley a while (~10 years) back. Safeway wanted to build a store with housing on top and the community pushed back.

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mrlotato t1_jb27q5t wrote

cracked eggery has coffee. plus 7-11

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FolkMetalWarrior t1_jb29j9a wrote

If it's anything like NY, lowering rent would revalue the property lower, which the property owner probably doesn't want to do; so they let it sit empty and write it off as a tax loss. Its a terrible end result for a community.

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ActuaryPersonal2378 t1_jb2a2cw wrote

There's been so many people blowing red lights lately. I know it's technically Woodley Park, but I personally consider the Zoo to be in CP (not that my say matters lol) - that big accident a few weeks ago, as bad as it was, shed some light on just how bad and dangerous that part of CT is.

Ever since I got rid of my car though, it has really opened my eyes to how insane driving in DC is. I don't even like being in ubers anymore

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sampanth4700 t1_jb2cexb wrote

This!!! I've even dreamt of opening a good coffee shop if anyone wants to do it with me lol it would seriously make money

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9throwaway2 t1_jb2cjmx wrote

the problem is that a strip mall in the city with 6 lanes of loud traffic is not good for an urban coffee shop. if starbucks can't make it worth it, that is the historic neighborhood's own fault.

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acdha t1_jb2gkjk wrote

I’d bet if you did a study you’d find more than a few residents avoid crossing such busy roads. That could be significant for a business which isn’t hugely profitable.

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vwcx t1_jb2l90y wrote

It's only been 13 years but newer CP residents never believe me that there used to be a cereal restaurant on the strip.

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acdha t1_jb2lrzo wrote

Pedestrians don’t have to jump out of my way because I avoid pedestrian areas and slow down when I can’t. If you’re not just trolling, try counting how many times pedestrians have to change what they’re doing to go around or avoid being hit by cyclists and by cars – the numbers aren’t even close, as you could guess from looking at the collision stats. The cause is obvious: cars need 10-20 times as much space per person so despite having so much space reserved for them it’s never enough; the same number of people on bus, bike, or foot will have a much easier fit.

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wailonskydog t1_jb2sfnc wrote

Having grown up in DC and lived in CP for a bit 6/8 years ago, CP has always been like this. It’s just as falling apart as it ever was.

I think the problem is that new residents see all the growth in the rest of the city and are bummed it hasn’t also happened in CP.

But unfortunately not everywhere can be 14th St. neighborhoods like CP, Glover Park, North Connecticut Ave, all just seem perpetually stuck.

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DCGinkgo t1_jb2vis4 wrote

I hope the croissants are no longer burnt. I gave up on them after weeks after too many well done croissants and no sign that some one person had been leaving them in too long. I just don't get the attraction for mediocre pastries. They do have a decent patio and obviously it's a neighborhood fave, so, hey diff strokes etc.

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IsTheNewBlack t1_jb2zi1u wrote

The crossing bit was a bit dramatic, for a comment that was otherwise well-stated. That said, there are constantly avoidable car accidents happening on CT in Cleveland and Woodley Park so I can see how some people may feel slightly less at ease.

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Seppafer t1_jb34qpm wrote

None of those things you mentioned are in Van Ness. Van Ness is a section of the Forest Hills neighborhoods that stretch from CP up to those shops stopping before the CVS. The 5000 block of Connecticut ave is more its own little thing that fills the gap between Van Ness and Chevy Chase

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RDAM60 t1_jb38th8 wrote

There was once a “Brothers Coffee”. I(I think that was the name or close to it). Zero parking. That’s why it’s always at risk. The parking can barely support what’s already there. Off street is an mess (esp. with all the road work), no real parking lot or garages (the old Jamal’s is too small and fills up fast) so zero drop by traffic.

Plus it’s a pain in the ass to even navigate in streets in CP. There was always a lot of foot traffic (starting back when Poor Robert’s (or Richard’s) bar/restaurant was there 40 years ago and there was plenty of action back in the 90s but it lost a bunch of retailers that drew people (even just the Micky DS).

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t-rexcellent t1_jb39fr0 wrote

I consider that block to be Van Ness...I suppose it's just as close to the Tenleytown Metro but being situation around CT ave rather than WI means I think of it as an extension of the rest of van ness. Definitely its own thing (with lots of housing / no retail separating it from the part of van ness near the metro) but until it gets its own name, I call it van ness. Or I call it "the area by politics and prose"

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t-rexcellent t1_jb39miy wrote

They sell coffee but it is definitely not a coffee shop! It's too weird drinking coffee out of a paper cup while sitting at a table with a tablecloth! I mean I am glad they have coffee but it doesn't serve the same function as a coffee shop

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t-rexcellent t1_jb39zfv wrote

They're on the list but I don't really trust that everyone on the list really opposes bike lanes. I think the anti-bike lane people bullied or just lied to places to get them to sign. I'm planning to call a few places to check.

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t-rexcellent t1_jb3b63o wrote

i think of the coupe as being more in columbia heights (or 11th street if you consider that its own neighborhood). But if you're at the southern end of petworth then it's pretty close by.

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ksixnine t1_jb3djak wrote

Retail dies in CP because of the overall history of CP: it was originally planned as a streetcar suburb, hence the strip mall & Piggly Wiggly, and not patterned to become anything remotely close to 1900s Georgetown or Tenleytown, as a result the repeated/ ingrained mindset of the residents (decade in decade out) has been to shop elsewhere.

And cars with or without historical preservation didn’t kill CP: if you look at how the neighborhood thrived in the late 80s through to the mid 00s, you’d understand that cars were a major factor in uplifting the area to turn it into a destination for diners & nightlife ~ whether they were going to the movie or not.

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overnighttoast t1_jb3e4st wrote

>preservation' killed Cleveland Park

What are you talking about? Cleveland Park is in the same state it's always been? A quieter residential part of dc with a nice little strip of shops and restaurants. There, Van Nes, and maybe Tenlytown are the only places in the city that haven't been gentrified to death.

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Remarkable_Staff_765 t1_jb3esai wrote

Remember when all the CP businesses fought the plans for turning the service lane into an expanded sidewalk area? They all had signs in their windows saying Save the Service Lane and were adamant that without those parking spaces they couldn't survive.

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cho_bits t1_jb3fcce wrote

I read an interview with the owner once where they asked him about how dark everything was and he said he liked them that way and he was far enough along in his career that he had decided that Bread Furst was where he was just going to make things just for himself/ the way he wants them. Basically that he has spent his whole career appeasing customers and now just wants to appease himself. So I guess you can thank the cranky-old-mannishness of Mark Furstenburg for the well done croissants?

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ksixnine t1_jb3g1bu wrote

In the 90s they had three, and by the 00s they had 1 1/2.

The dynamics of the neighborhood shifted noticeably around the time Klingle Rd closed - of the residents catching the metro, who would be more prone to drinking coffee, they could not take a beverage with them on the train and would wait until they were at work.

There hasn’t been a thriving lunch community in CP in .. well .. practically never: most all of the restaurants were geared towards dinner. As a result the people behind Tryst/ The Diner, Big Bear, etc.. were frosty on CP because of the hours of its foot traffic - with rent being as high as it was, having a storefront empty for 60-70% of the day didn’t make sense.

Lastly, online ordering of coffee, as well as K-cups, killed the impetus of going to a coffee shop in that neighborhood - hence why it took Starbuck’s a while to close down.

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Potential-Calendar t1_jb3hazn wrote

It’s stuck because it wants to be stuck, it’s not like there’s any undeveloped lot, or any area zoned for multifamily that isn’t already using it. If they want new residents and the development and new restaurants that serves those new residents they need to upzone. There’s single family houses 300 feet from the metro stop, there just aren’t enough people per square mile at that density to support a lot of stuff

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Barnst t1_jb4mfjj wrote

I thought about that, but it’s actually a closer walk from the metro than Buna. Petworth is weird with its metro stop basically being the southwest corner of the neighborhood.

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Oogaman00 t1_jb4saek wrote

Are you talking about the intersection at Porter that the city has completely fucked up for 2 years for no reason?

I just moved from there and they have so fucked up that intersection I can't believe people haven't died. All they did was make traffic insane and it looks like an abandoned inner city project

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acdha t1_jb5kxj5 wrote

Each time I’ve looked, the owners of those stores live an hour away in Maryland or Virginia. I’m not surprised that they want a personal highway but I doubt it’s representative of their customers or employees.

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Too_LeDip_To_Quit t1_jb7tbib wrote

One of the fascinating things about CT is the existing density. The "gaps" between the commercial strips -- from WP to the Zoo, from the Zoo to CP, and from CP to Van Ness -- are almost entirely large multifamily buildings.

But when you spend a lot of time on CT, you really don't see much foot traffic at all from these apartments to the commercial strips. You can't blame them -- the streetscape is dangerous and unpleasant.

But there are a ton of people who already live on the corridor.

And yes, there should be more density on the commercial strips themselves and probably on the neighborhood streets as well.

But I think in general (not necessarily ITT) people oversell housing NIMBYism as the diagnosis here when transportation NIMBYism is the bigger villain.

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ksixnine t1_jb7zpfh wrote

1940s, post the Depression/ New Deal growth wasn’t the beginning of Cleveland Park now was it?

The data I’m using is from the late 1800s when the Rock Creek Railway line via the Chevy Chase Land Company built the infrastructure for Connecticut Ave, as well as the failure of the Cleveland Park Company, and the eventual success of the Miller brothers - ultimately, none of these entities were trying to compete with the longtime established villages of Georgetown and Tenallytown (Tenleytown) when they finalized the designs & built out Lower Cleveland Park.

The movie theater, the park & shop, and the automobile literally drove people to the area, and helped redefine the streetcar suburb in the 1940s (and post war 50s) — places to eat/ buy groceries, and be entertained, as well as the ability to get one’s car serviced were the primary draws for that neighborhood, relegating retail shopping to being secondary ~ which it still is to this day.

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bobthebonobo t1_jb8ev7n wrote

A basic selection of meets haha. Streets is better but still lacking. For instance I was in Cleveland park a few weeks ago picking up a few ingredients for a really basic recipe. I needed some ground pork and neither store had any. That’s such a basic and important meat to have. I was in Streets the other day and they didn’t even have any ground beef as well.

Another thing it would be nice to have available would be slightly less common cuts like ribs. They’ve pretty much just got a couple types of fish, chicken, Italian sausage, ground turkey, and a couple cuts of steak.

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UnderwhelmingComment t1_jbbqe3d wrote

I wish they had more consistent support. It was hard for them to compete only having a single screen and without upgrading the equipment. Still, I loved it. I think they could’ve done so much more to make in weird and interesting with themed movie nights, stuff for groups, etc., but I’m not sure that’s something that would’ve worked with AMCs structure. If AFI owned it I think it would be a much better deal. Who knows what they’ll do with it. Think it’s an historic building.

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