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CuriousShower9 t1_ja8kkf2 wrote

We’re officially in the new era of post-colonial imperialism in Africa. Russia and China have been heavily involved in African geopolitics to secure resources and now the NATO countries feel the need to respond. It’s the Berlin conference all over again.

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der_titan t1_ja8omh6 wrote

I think you have your cause and effect reversed. It was the countries in Europe that colonized and exploited Africa. Russian and Chinese involvement in Africa (and the Global South in general) was a response to Western exploitation and colonization.

The USSR / Russia have goodwill because they helped Africans expel the colonizers. Mozambique even put the AK-47 on its flag! By no means were the Soviets acting out of benevolence, but nonetheless there is goodwill towards Russia that continues today.

China also has been investing heavily in Africa, and providing developmental aid with more favorable terms, lower interest rates, and often fewer restrictions than Western aid. Again, it's not out of benevolence but it does engender good will towards China.

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LeGuizee t1_ja93v4y wrote

When the African will wake up they will realize that most of their strategic infrastructures are owned by China. But Because its not due to direct colonization they don’t see what is coming.

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der_titan t1_ja96q1u wrote

Even putting aside the ravages of colonialism, the IMF and World Bank have their own disastrous records in Africa creating export and debt traps that have devastated nations.

It's paternalistic to imply that an entire continent is naive rather than making informed choices.

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guysguy t1_ja9eypg wrote

Yes. African countries are all stupid. That’s why they don’t see how the IMF‘s and WorldBank offerings are great but the Chinese investment offerings are terrible. If only they could see how China will do the exact same thing we’ve been doing for hundreds of years.

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Cytizens9320 t1_ja9ig0w wrote

There's few African leaders that have their countries best interest. i can count them with one hand

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SignificantOkra7208 t1_jaankuj wrote

I didn't realize Africans had the monopoly on selfish leaders, the African populace must be really stupid.

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Stormwind-Champion t1_jaax7h9 wrote

yeah cuz the africans are dumb and they don't know what's best for their own countries. instead they should listen to you

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bobby_j_canada t1_jab5ms8 wrote

Ah yes, because those silly Africans don't know what's good for them and need a clever Westerner to make decisions on their behalf, right?

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Venvut t1_ja9xsc2 wrote

They don’t care because China is an idiot to think they’d ever repay them. China is already struggling with this.

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Chubbybellylover888 t1_jaaxwg6 wrote

Eh... Look up the African Frank. France has had economic sovereignty over most of western Africa for over half a century post-decolonisation.

It never stopped.

Russia and China are new to the game with regards to Imperialism in Africa. European nations are a full very much making bank on their exploits.

I say this as an EU citizen.

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f_d t1_ja9yoid wrote

>It was the countries in Europe that colonized and exploited Africa.

That's what they meant by post-colonial.

>Russian and Chinese involvement in Africa (and the Global South in general) was a response to Western exploitation and colonization.

Russia and China don't "respond" to those things in other countries. They look for their own opportunities to take advantage and guarantee access to resources, like nearly every other country does in its own way. If nobody else was in the way, they would be doing more of it.

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Snack378 t1_jabzqt4 wrote

>The USSR / Russia have goodwill because they helped Africans expel the colonizers.

Oh yeah, people in Zimbabwe so grateful for USSR's/China's support for Mugabe, he was such good leader /s

You are ignorant fool, all they done is ruined almost entire continent with their weapon supply for tyrants.

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actuallyimean2befair t1_jabvavq wrote

Let them see what it's like with China running the show.

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arsinoe716 t1_jac4i99 wrote

They are already benefiting from it. They get infrastructure built as opposed to infrastructure being bombed.

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DaNo1CheeseEata t1_ja9fmzj wrote

> The USSR / Russia have goodwill because they helped Africans expel the colonizers

Yeah, another way to put it is they backed friendly movements and regimes that were even more brutal and oppressive then the ones they replaced. Decades later the results speak for themselves.

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WheresMyEtherElon t1_jaaqqfz wrote

As someone who grew up under a regime backed by the Soviets that drove the country to the ground, and which replaced a regime backed by the French during which the country had a somewhat adequate level of development, hoping for anything from the Russians is an absolute idiocy. The gap in standard of livings between my youth and my parents' youth was abysmal, and not all of that is because of corruption (because the French-backed regime was corrupt as well).

I don't know enough about China to have an informed opinion.

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streetknows t1_ja8rpfx wrote

France always kept heavy ties with Africa ever since colonization ended. Mainly in the financial and military sector with the positive and negatives repercussions it dragged. Also Northern African and ex-colonies diasporas are massive in the country. Both of those points "legitimate" our position in Africa compared to China/Russia.

I'm not saying I agree with this strategy but you can't compare that to "Nato vs China/Russia". It's mostly about France trying to protect their influence in the region in awkwardly manners.

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Deicide1031 t1_ja8z1vt wrote

People tend to go with the best deal. It doesn’t really matter how much of the diaspora France has. One of the only reasons they held such sway in the first place was because they were one of the only options.

If France isn’t more proactive and competitive as far as what they offer they are going to lose out completely. Not just to China/Russia but other players like the Americans, japan, other major African countries in Africa, etc.

For starters, those countries want to develop and get rich. Can France help with that? Certainly doesn’t look like they’ve done much but line their own pockets up to now. (No offense)

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streetknows t1_ja91go3 wrote

Definitely right and none offense taken. I was just pointing out that a big part of French society is influenced by African diaspora and culture (mainly in the big cities) which is not the case in other country with the same "imperialists ambitions" operating in the continent at the moment.

It brings a mix of "damn if you do, damn if you don't" which is why, in my opinion, we should step aside from this sensible region for a bit and focus a lot more on attracting investments and developments in our DOMTOMs (oversea territories that are fully part of France).

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Exocet6951 t1_ja98glm wrote

>Can France help with that? Certainly doesn’t look like they’ve done much but line their own pockets up to now. (No offense)

Yeah I'm sure exporting almost nothing to Mali, and sending 40 million in aid in 2020 alone is massively lining one's pockets....

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adilfc t1_ja9n85k wrote

The problem is that most of the leaders tend to go with best deals for them not for community.

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Deicide1031 t1_ja9pmxk wrote

Are we really acting like France doesn’t intentionally support those types? The CFA system promoted by France is also not in the best interest of the African participants.

What you’ve said is very much true, but this is very much a two sided issue with both parties not being good faith actors. The fact some of those African players are looking elsewhere after literally centuries depending on the country speaks volumes. If the relationships were that mutually beneficial there’d be no reason for them to look to Russia or China after all that time.

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rtseel t1_jaauo86 wrote

> If the relationships were that mutually beneficial there’d be no reason for them to look to Russia or China after all that time.

The relationships aren't mutally beneficial anymore. One of the major reasons is that the public opinion in France (and by extension the French government) has become much more sensitive to issues of corruption and sustainable development. There were many awful things that French companies and African elites did in the past that went with the blessing of the French government. Some African regimes miss that blessed period and just want a "protector" which would fund their lavish lifestyles and help them keep the power, but without imposing their ethics. That's why they don't go with Germany either, or Japan, even though Germany has no recent history with Africa and Japan never had, and both would be ideal candidates as healthier alternatives to France and the UK.

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arsinoe716 t1_jac4l3h wrote

Is this the same France that invaded Libya, killed their leader and stole the billions in gold reserves?????

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News_Account45 t1_jabx0fv wrote

China is dozens of steps ahead of Russia. I’ve tried to look up what Russia is actively investing in, and outside of a lot of broken vaccine promises, they haven’t done much except have talks with leaders.

Lumping Russia into African geopolitics is in and of itself Russian PR because they’ve done very little

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aerospacemonkey t1_jaarn4l wrote

France literally owns the 14 countries still using the CFA franc, and keeps the value of resources artificiality low for themselves. None of those countries have been able to grow out of extreme poverty, and their GDP have been stagnant or declining since the 70s.

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e-chem-nerd t1_jab24ol wrote

Damn you fell for that Caspian Report video too? African countries voluntarily use CFA because it provides a stable currency that they are unable to provide for themselves.

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tnarref t1_jaa9nhl wrote

Russia is in it for reasons that go beyond Wagner paying themselves with local ressources. The migrant crisis of 2015 deeply divided the EU and the members have since shown a tougher stance on migration, Erdogan's Turkey playing a game of blackmailing the EU about potentially opening migration routes to the EU is something which showed Russia that controlling migration routes can be some sort of leverage to be used against the EU.

So Russia is trying to gain presence in Africa for 2 reasons linked to that: 1. With influence in countries migrants leave from/go through with hopes of reaching the EU, they'll have a card to play to get something from the EU in exchange for their cooperation with whatever migration policy the EU will want to put in place, or straight up go against that policy to try to destabilize the EU. And 2. If these countries stay unstable enough, this will keep a steady stream of potential migrants to the EU open.

TLDR: Russia's Africa policy isn't really about Africa, it's about the EU's migration policy.

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